Pete Carrol out coached Robert Saleh. Pete’s team was ready, the Jets were not. The Jets defense improved this year and may have found their Safety for 2023, in Tony Adams, but the Offense is in shambles, and Special Teams needs some work. Saleh needs to be ruthless with this coaching staff. Every Offensive Coach’s job is up for review. Mike La Fleur is out of his depth, but he may have some upside, cautionary tale here of hiring your friends. It’s Saleh’s call, but I keep Mike for continuity, and because of the success of the Green Bay & SF Offenses. Banging the Drum as always for a Veteran Passing Game Coordinator that replaces our WR Coach, and acts as a sounding board for MLF and aides in Mike’s development. John Benton is an 18 year NFL Offensive Line Coach, and supposedly a Wide Zone Guru, and currently the Running Game Coordinator. In John’s Defense, the Offensive Line has had massive injuries, and there may be a question of how current players fit the system, but the Offensive Line has underperformed. It is prudent to strip John immediately of his Running Game Coordinator duties and find some one else. In reviewing Benton’s performance, I think you have to look at blocking schemes, and how they work for current personnel, and if you need to implement other power based schemes , even for merely a change up.
The Jets have 4 QB’s on the roster , but actually they have none. You keep Zach as number two next year, because of the CAP hit, and you work like hell on trying to develop the guy. Jets don’t have money to land a top tier QB, going with Brissett, Minshaw or Bridgewater.
I agree, I'd keep Lafluer but bring in help for him. MLF showed creativity earlier but was overwhelmed, and didn't seem to know how to adjust when his OL fell apart and QB couldn't make a throw. TBF most offenses fall apart with that. White was overthrowing and under-throwing.
We hired Lafleur with a plan to have a dominant OL, strong running game behind it, talented TE and WR's, and a young QB. Clearly this all shifted.
I view MLF as an ascending talent; he's still learning. Remember, 2023 decisions are for the 2023 version of the coach, not 2022. He might still be improving.
Our OL talent was decimated with injuries, which hurt our talent level, but from a chemistry standpoint, the guys that played were actually together most of the year. Brown+Laken+CMG+Herbig were the 4 for much of the year. They kept missing assignments and couldn't handle stunts, sometimes resulting in Tomlinson blocking nobody. These 4 mostly played together, so I'd assume they don't understand their assignment in the scheme? But LT played in the same scheme last year. I assume that's on the coaching. or maybe these veterans just aren't very coachable? I'm hoping JD knows the issue, bec our OL was the biggest breakdown of 2022.
Re QB - I'd like to see the tape breakdowns for skill and scheme fit, but I think we're a strong playoff team if we had Carr at QB this year. He'll be expensive. Assuming we have ZW as backup, MFW doesn't have a role.
This will be the last time that I post “ I’ve been a Jet fan since 1963”
This current 5 game losing streak is the worse that I have ever seen by the Jets. Worse than any losing streak under Kotite, Carroll’s streak, the 10-1 start that ended 10-6.
Any Jet fan with a pulse knew in their hearts that when Walker broke off that 60 yard run, the season was over.
The most damming thing yesterday wasn’t the continuous putrid quarterback play or LeFleur’s idiotic play calling, it was that this team came out flatter than a pancake. That’s on Saleh, he had 10 days to get this team ready, he failed horribly.
When he was hired, a bunch of his old 49ers team all said the same thing, we love to play for him. Based on yesterday’s continuous underwhelming performances does it seem like the players love playing for him because they didn’t really play at all yesterday.
The Johnsons paid 660 million for the Jets, the team is worth in the billions.
Woodhead and Clueless Chris can’t use the excuse they don’t want to pay for a new staff if they fire Saleh.
Between the PSL Ponzi scheme, ticket prices, parking prices and tv money they can afford to fire Saleh if they want.
There is no logical explanation that LeFleur is still around here after 1/8/23. If Saleh won’t fire him, then bye bye coach, because season ticket holders don’t get discounts when the HC hires his best friends brother who was an OC only one year in his life with a division 3 college.
Every Monday morning, Peter King releases a huge column. It covers all aspects of football, plus other stories. Not one word today about the Jets, nothing. You can’t be anymore irrelevant when your not mentioned in a football column that mentions the president of the Yankees or some friend of Kings who won a $30,000 suicide pool. Not one word.
When the Jets got beat in 1969 by the Chiefs in the playoffs the year after the Super Bowl win. Namath basically said, tough loss today, but I see us back in the Super Bowl in the immediate future.
That was 52 years ago. I’m 74, beat prostate cancer, and I can honestly say the way things look today, I can’t even see them in the playoffs.
The day after the Green Bay game, I sat in a airport in Appleton,Wisconsin and actually said to myself. I think they finally got it right with JD and Saleh. I should have known better. It’s still the same old Jets, they aren’t winning anything in my lifetime, that’s for sure.
Lot of very good points here and you're right about the irrelevance, that's so incredibly damning to a team who just two months ago we're all over the national sports news.
We faded into football obscurity over the last month and I know that's going to be hard to take for Woody. I don't think they'll fire Saleh but two things really worried me over the last week or two:
1) His comments about it not being about the playoffs. I'm sure his intentions were sound, but when your team is in the hunt and that team hasn't been to the playoffs in 11 years (now 12) then it absolutely has to be about the playoffs.
2) How flat the team came out. Defense gave up 17 points in the first 3 drives before recovering. The offense never recovered.
I liked the hiring of MLF at the time, but someone has to take the fall and if I were a betting man, I'd say it's him.
re Playoffs, i think people are misreading it. His point is that the HC can't think about playoffs when the team is playing poorly. There's so much they need to get on track, and then the focus is what they can control. Saleh has said in the past that they need to control what they can control. Playoffs are out of their control. Jets needed to focus on doing what they needed to do to win, and not worry about playoff scenarios.
Re MLF, i hope they don't fire him, but rather bring in more support. He's a young OC that showed he has creativity and ideas, but struggled to adjust when we lacked talent. TBF, our OL couldn't block consistently and every QB was so inaccurate. Really difficult to game-plan around that.
I'm so frustrated with the OL. It's been JD's biggest focus from Day 1, but we haven't seen results. So many injuries. Maybe it'll look better with AVT and Becton and a R1 OT added.
Totally disagree on LeFleur. Seattle was 30th against the run, so what doe LeFleur call 17 runs and 46 passes. This has nothing to do with lack of talent. The Jets averaged 4.4 yard a carry yesterday. He had plenty of time to run. Opening drive, second half, 3 incompletions, 3 and out. That is mind blowing
Can't go by totals, bec we were down 2 TD in the 4th quarter. Can't go by averages - they're skewed by a few big runs that balance out a bunch of drive killing no gains.
If I'm being critical of Lafleur, I think it's this -
An important job for the OC is to maximize the available talent, and I'm not sure he did that. Elijah Moore seemed like a breakout candidate but regressed.
But - how much blame is the terrible QB play and porous OL? I'm not sure
Bobber, so why is this your last post? Did this game change your fandom? Hey, it was disappointing. I get it. But for the first time in a long time I do see a light at the end of the tunnel. This is not the time to bail.
Well - Like Bobber - this will be my last rant. Robert "all ass no gas" Saleh turned out to be a trerrible coach - I have said this in this space before - him and Douglas can go a week from today. I was smart enugh to go to the NY Ranger game after the 60 yard "game is over' play. I only turned it on in between periods. Guess what the Rangers scored 1 less point then The Jets. I've also stated in this space that White stinks always have always will. His comment that "The doctors cleared me to play" smells like - he really shouldn't have as he was hurting. Flacco should have started that game. Saleh has the audacity to state "we are close and have a core". For what the XFL ? This team is no closer to the playoffs then they were when Gase won 7 games. I dont want to hear "Douglas knows how to draft" Anyone in the world would pick Gardner and G. Wilson - its beyond obvious the guy doesnt not know what he is doing. Like Bobber - i've been a Jets fan since the 60's. This has to be the worse collapse in thier history. They raised the season ticket prices to the tune of $25.00 bucks a ticket - They are forcing me to make a decision i dont want to make but i'm tired of spending all that money, wasting a whole day for no return what so ever for people in charge that don't care. Woody better call Payton right away or they are looking at a 5 win season next year -
I'll just comment on Douglas, I think we keep him and not fall prey to this "ya had three years and didn't get it done; you're OUDDAHERE!!!" mentality.
Longevity, in the front office and if you're lucky, on your coaching staffs - is the one common denominator for the most successful, most emulated teams in the NFL. The Steelers (three head coaches in 53 years). The Patriots. The Packers.
Here's why Douglas must stay. His DNA. He worked with Ozzie Newsome for fifteen years.
Ozzie Newsome was the greatest NFL GM over the past twenty years. He was the Ravens GM from 1996 - 2018. Joe was learning from him from 2000, i think to 2014. And I'm gonna go over the Ravens records in that 2000 to 2015 time frame. Am also including notable names either who was coaching, or great players (which Ozzie brought in...) during those years --
2011 12-4 (lost AFC Championship) (Terrell Suggs DPOY)
2012 10-6 Super Bowl Victors (Joe Flacco SB MVP)
2013 8-8
2014 10-6 (lost Division playoff)
2015 5-11
2016 8-8
2017 9-7
2018 10-6 (lost Wild Card playoff)
2019 14-2 (lost Division playoff) (Lamar Jackson MVP; John Harbaugh COY)
2020 11-5 (lost Division playoff)
Though Newsome left after 2018, I included the 2019 and 2020 seasons because for at least a couple seasons after his retirement, the teams were still essentially the same personnel groupings he had put together, especially the drafted players. Newsome drafted Lamar Jackson in his last year as GM; Lamar was the league MVP the year after.
Now, why would I spend all this time/writeup about an outside GM? Because Joe Douglas was there for 15 years. He was part of two Superbowl wins, saw consistent excellence; was there when the team had losing records, and was there when the Ravens bounced back from a losing season (which they never had two consecutive losing seasons in this period) and returned to contender form. He was there when the Ravens drafted Jamal Lewis, Terrell Suggs, Ed Reed, Joe Flacco and Lamar Jackson. Two Hall of Famers in that group. As Ozzie was putting together these teams, Douglas was right there next to him. OH, and by the way, Ozzie hired John Harbaugh, coach now for 15 years and counting.
Ozzie's knowledge and record speak loud and clear. His longevity, especially returning from losing seasons back to not only respectability, but league-wide excellence, simply blows any "three strikes yer OUT!" approach to NFL management. That's like comparing Chess to Tic-Tac-Toe.
Joe Douglas learned all this. And all the knowledge, experience, wisdom that Ozzie shared with Joe, is here now with him as our GM.
Now, I don't know if GOD gives football teams and fans much thought, but since I Know for a Fact that GOD made me a Jets fan (see my profile remarks), I pray that Woody Johnson does not get rid of Joe, keeps him and lets Joe mold our Jets into a team that can do the above, just like he saw Ozzie do it with the Ravens.
Now LaFleur, on the other hand? That's another conversation...
Season ticket holder for 37 years. When the Johnsons started with the PSL Ponzi scheme, I said adios. I have DirecTV, I get the football package. My bathroom about 15 feet from my tv/ chair. Refrigerator about 20 feet away. Car parked outside for free. No traffic, no rain, no snow always 68 degrees. Happy as can be. Johnsons destroyed the fan base. They made the stadium a neutral site. Johnsons have no sense of loyalty to their fans. When the Jets were 7-4 they had the balls to send out season ticket applications for next season, with a $25 dollar increase. If they waited to mail the applications today, they would have been forced to give a $25 dollar discount. I’m sure a % of fans won’t renew after yesterday’s shit show
If Frogs had handguns, Birds wouldn't Eff with them.
hard but accurate description - we are (and will see better after the pain subsides...) a better team than last year, but in a way i'm sort of glad we don't make the playoffs this year because we're clearly not ready - and to have made the playoffs would have meant a lower draft pick (and we need the best ones we can get).
LaFleur pisses me off. Using the TE's in the passing game exposed the Hawks secondary. I don't care if there were 3 drops from that group, you stick with it, just like you shudda stuck with the run game. Oh, and by the way, I question these as being called "drops". I'm old school; I believe if you as the receiver can put one hand on the ball, that's a 50-50 catch. If you put both hands on the ball (as Uzomah did...) then you CATCH THE DAMN BALL! I don't care if you gotta stretch for it, don't care if it doesn't hit you in the numbers. Ya TOUCH it, ya CATCH it!
Mike White - boy did that bubble pop too quick for me! Worst thing about his play, he consistently throws the ball behind the receiver. A couple of plays to Wilson alone - had White placed the ball in front of him, allowing to catch it in stride, Garrett would still be running. And you could tell that Garrett was frustrated with the behind-the-stride throws, but his reactions were quite muted.
Really, I think if we would have had a better quarterback this year, like a Derek Carr or Jimmy Garrapalo, we would have seen Garrett be THE #1 Receiver in the league. Yes, there - I said it. And we'd be looking at both the OROY and DROY. Garrett is just. That. Good. And a truly fierce competitor, his boyish-like love and joy for the game - to the point of celebrating like a kid in a sandlot game when his teammate scores - I luv that about this kid - not withstanding, this kid does not quit.
And when I think of what-might-have-been... had we actually had a good, consistent quarterback, had Breece Hall not gone down with an injury (two candidates for OROY? Ya Betcha!!!)... (sigh...). Well so much for that dream; if frogs had handguns than birds wouldn't eff with them.
So David, summary - we improved, but not-there-yet. Time to look forward to what needs to be done:
1) get a new Quarterback. Jimmy G or Derek Carr. Win-Now. Plus draft a prospect in 3R or 4R.
> How? package Zach to someone who believes they can do a better job fixing him, 'cause as far as New York is concerned, that train left the station. He can get fixed, but it can't happen here (Saleh, I disagree with you on your statements, time to display best-for-team over best-for-very-gifted-but-SCREWED-up-player). Yes I know, it'll cost - but what's the cost in comparison of having a team with an excellent defense and tremendous playmakers (Hall, Knight, Wilson, Moore, Conklin) GO TO WASTE because your QB is losing games for you?
2) FIX THE OFFENSIVE LINE! AVT is a rock solid. Keep Mitchell & Herbig, they showed enough for me to feel comfortable that they can get better, alot better with good coaching, proper scheming. GOODBYE Tomlinson. Overpaid, and overvalued. THANK YOU FOR STEPPING UP, Duane. I like you, but not for the money that you're getting paid (and lets face it, both these guys raked in Big Bucks because of the Becton-Fant injuries and JD NEEDED to stop the O-Line bleeding). David, your observation on yesterdays fiasco, that Laurence Duvernay-T was the best OLineman out there - man on man, but sometimes I really, really do not like when the Truth hurts like this.
> How? Draft, my man, the Draft! If we're not putting 3 of the top 4 picks we have into the OLine, then I'm worried. OK, so if we get Carr via trade, that calculus will suffer, but you get my drift. Only starters or guys who have started which I think we should keep - AVT, McGovern, Herbig, Mitchell. And yes, Becton, but only because of his rookie contract, and really, 2023 is his last chance to fix this.
2a) Also explicitly stating here and now. sports media/shark tank has been making noises about Douglas failing to fix this. Those guys are full of it; Joe has been working minor miracles in the face of tremendous adversity.
2a - point one: Start with Becton; what are the odds that he's out for two years? The fault on the Becton issue, i believe, lies with the Jets team in allowing him to work on getting better outside of the team facilities (and monitoring/guidance/management). They should have kept him in 1JD, and pressed to have him on a weight program, get him down to 330 from the 380 he was lugging around.
2a - point two: Injuries. We've had six starting offensive tackles. This is Joe's fault?
2a - point three: Free Agents signed. Tomlinson and Brown - both vets with very good to great resumes, both fighting against Father Time (who ultimately gets us all). Both knew the Jets were desperately in need of OLine help. Both their contracts reflect they knew this, and took advantage of it. What alternatives did Douglas have at the time of signing? You know you're gonna pay, cause there are no freebies in this scenario, so you structure the contract as best you can, in a way that the mercenary agents for this guys know will get their clients good $$$, while leaving your team in the best possible shape to cut bait if things don't work out as you hope. In the case of Tomlinson and Brown, their deficiencies - in pass blocking, run blocking... in short, in playing as competent OFFENSIVE LINEMEN - just ran into Father Time about 3 games ago. Am not condemning their effort; I think they gave it their best - but their best just ran out of steam.
OH, and by the way, on the above weaknesses in pass protection? I don't know what you may see in the tape upon replaying the game, but it seems like in LaFleur's scheme, he doesn't much like keeping a back in for pass protection very often.
3) COACHING. Yes, we talk about LaFleur alot and with good reason... but I got serious beefs with Ulbrich - and beyond that, with Saleh from a philosophy standpoint.
3a) Philosophy first. Yes, we have a dominant front-four, but if the back seven are playing keep-the-ball-in-front-of-you, then a well run West Coast offense stressing quick passes to capable playmakers has consistently defeated our defensive strength. As Geno and the Hawks did, as Trevor and Jags did last week, as the Bills, the Vikings, the Patriots have done... gee whiz, I can almost see a trend in that!!! OH, and by the way, this "keep the ball in front of you, avoid chunk plays" bullshit? Well, the Hawks still got plenty of good chunk plays yesterday, didn't they? That's a weakness here - and has been for our Defense all year long. Why didn't the Jets blitz more this game? Geno's stats showed him to be a much less capable QB when being pressured. He had TIME to get the play out, and if our front-four rush is not unsettling him, than Ulbrich should have been sending five guys more often. And not just on passing downs, but 1st and 2nd downs, too. In situations where the Hawks wouldn't expect him to. Remember, these teams watch our tape as much as we do theirs; and I'd say that in their eyes, Ulbrich is almost boringly predictable in this regard. And if you're gonna blitz more, than your guys can't sit back in the usual "keep it in front of you" scheme; press coverage; chip that TE coming off the line, check those Receivers as they start their routes; take that split-second AWAY from their timing routes - do not just let them HAVE that time, KEEP their initiative, and run their play while we wait for our front four to get there and REACT to THEM. Dammit, I hate that! Defenses should always, always, always be ATTACKING the offense! Get them out of their rythym, make THEM REACT to YOU.
Is it a risk? Damn right it is... higher chance of them getting big, chunk plays when you do this. But - considering (Ulbrich and Saleh, looking at you guys on this...) that they were getting chunk plays anyways in our normal scheme - what did you have to lose by using this mind-*^$k psychology against them? It's like Deja-Vu all over again, like teams stacking the box against Zach, daring him to beat them with the passing game, except on the defense side in that they know Ulbrich won't bring additionaly pressure so they tailor their Offensive plans accordingly.
Finally on defense, the tackling deficiencies are glaringly obvious - and that's on coaching and practice - so Ulbrich and Saleh, what ITF are you guys DOING about this??
Well that's it for me, I'm spent this morning - knowing we're better than last year is OK, but compared to knowing we had the chance to be even better, but weren't - that effin' hurts, man.
CGVet58- first, making a minor assumption here, but thank you for your service.
Second, you must type waaayyy better than me, and I appreciate that b/c I agree w/ your comments and POV.
I agree wholeheartedly about the need for FO stability being paramount to success. Joe D must stay, he knows the job. I'm not thrilled w/ Saleh in regards to some in-game decisions, like punting on 4th and 2, late in the game Sunday (I was there btw, my son's first NFL game!). But I think the HC is much more about culture and 30,000 ft view, not all, but mostly....coming out flat in a do-or-die falls on the HC and team leaders. Saleh can be our long-term coach, he'll get better and be great some day.
I don't have the same view of LaFleur as I do Saleh. Done w/ that experiment. Matt LaFleur, yes, Mike a firm "no".
Carr should not be overly expensive given that LV has played its hand and is up against a huge money deadline. Give them Zach, Corey davis and the lowest round pick we can get away with. Plan B for me would be Minshew. I'm in the NW and saw him at WSU, love his attitude and grit; his skills are better than many, he's got Streveler fight w/ an arm.
After QB our three priorities should be; create a dominant O Line, create a dominant O Line and then create a DOMINANT O Line.
thank you, yes, 24 years - USN 8 years ('76-'84) and USCG 16 ('84-2000). Yes, retired 23 years ago - where in the heck did the time go? And part of that, I was stationed in Seattle, back when the Kingdome was still up. Here's a memory flashback for you - Tim's Cascade Potato Chips, the Jalapeno ones - are they still the Bomb or what? And how about the Pecos Pit BBQ on First Ave South (corner of Stacy st)? hoo-wee i had me some goo-o-o-od sammishes from that place! Good memories, Seattle was a beautiful city, the Olympics, the Cascades, the Sound, the islands... and i can't believe that was almost 30 years ago for me. Damn!
I like Carr better than Garappolo; jimmy is fragile, imho. Plus, Carr has done amazing things despite not having a good D most of the time. Can you imagine him chuckin the rock to Wilson, Moore, Hall, Knight, the TE's? Hell yeah, woodie!!! I sure can!
O-Line, O-line, O-LINE! Yes, brother, abso-effin-lutely. I miss the days of Brick and Mangold anchoring the best O-Line in the league, and 10 years running, too! - Brick was the original IronMan, only missing One Snap and that was because it was a trick play. And how about when Kevin Mawae would pull and head downfield in front of Curtis? Never had so much fun yellin'/shouting for a 330# beast to knock everybody down while truckin' down the field LOL! Good memories, hopefully Wilson, Moore, Hall, AVT, Knight & Conklin will light up some more for us fans. Hopefully with Derek Carr at the helm.
Appears Mike White was no where near where he should have been to be the QB in terms of health. If I wanted to see passes that bad, they should have put Zach behind center. The offense was neither prepared nor motivated. The defense, while they seemed to play hard, missed so many tackles. They made RB Walker look like Walter Payton. I would have loved to see Saleh chew out his players and coaches. He had the look of a man getting his butt kicked and there was nothing he could do about it. (I've been there and it isn't fun.). Coach Saleh must never allow such poor play calling and performance to ever happen again.
Is JJ ready to be our starting Edge? If so, I assume we cut Lawson?
Can Ruckert have a meaningful role next year? JD said he was a bulldog in run blocking. We needed run blocking help but didn't see him. Would love to see it. Uzomah can't be cut for a year so we'll need a plan for the 3 of them. will we use 3 TE set like Seattle? Can Ruckert play some FB like the Ravens?
Max Mitchell was a developmental OT/OG to eventually be a starter. Are we ready for that time to be today? If so I'd still draft OL in R1 but that would shift our strategy.
RB - Bam was a KR in college. Assuming Breece is healthy, can Bam replace Berrios at KR?
Breece + Bam + MC. Bye J-Rob and bye Ty Johnson.
Can Clemons take on more, being the 3rd edge?
Will we resign Huff? He's been a big part of our 3rd down, paired with Lawson. Can Huff take on a bigger role, or have we discovered the way to use his strengths without his weakness?
Can Quincy develop some instincts and discipline? He's much improved but I'm skeptical
Can we get Moore back to the ascending prospect he looked like in his rookie season? Use him as a slot WR and occasionally outside
If we had to cut Corey Davis for salary, do we have any confidence Mims grows again? I don't. Do we sign a similar WR, or tweak the offense for a guy like Mims to be successful?
Thanks CG - good detective work ! This is all well and good but basically Douglas is a nincumpoop. His free agent signings atrocious (The Jets have no safeties) Davis doesnt stay on the field same with Lawson - every lineman he signs gets injured. He just cant stay and run another draft - and then you add in all ass no gas as a coach your talking same old jets - Im done i cant support this mess any longer 50 plus years and im done !
-OT - starter to upgrade Brown or add depth behind Becton. (I assume we let Fant walk. I'd take him as a swing tackle if he doesn't find a team that wants him to start.
-Safety - need 2! Adams is solid as 3rd safety. Whitehead was bad at most aspects of the position. Joyner is sub par. Draft a starter on Day 2, and let him start immediately.
-C- to replace CMG if we don't resign him.
-LB - Quincy is FA. Plus we need a CJ replacement in 2024. Quincy improved but still over runs the play. CJ is great, but expensive for a 2 down LB. I think a day 2 pick starts next to CJ.
-WR - if cutting Corey Davis. Mims isn't ready to assume most of the role. Maybe we spend less here, now that it's WR2 or WR 3
-iDL - pair with Q so we don't get gashes by run. Guys like Rankins are OK for another year
-KR /PR to replace Berrios. Zonovan has KR experience, which can work if Breece and MC are healthy
Punter to replace Mann. He's been terrible. It's time.
-OG - to eventually replace Laken. Dead money may mean he stays for one year. If so we still should consider a mid round pick to develop and add depth. He's been the most disappointing FA signing.
Hey CG - thanks for taking all the time to document this - inpressive. I knew he came being schooled by Newsome or at least expsoed to him all those years. However, in today's NFL it doesnt take 5 years (counting next year) to build at least a playoff team. Just blowing two number 1 picks one of them the second overall pick should get him fired. Becton is a total bust he couldnt have done his homework on that one. The punter he wont get off of. Ashton Davis ? He has tried to build a offensive line 4 straight years and has failed very year. There is nothing for him to build on top of there as his drafting is so bad. Time to bring in someone else in and all ass no gas can go with him.
went digging a little deeper on Newsome, cause he sure didn't reach elite GM status until starting his 5th year at the helm. So I took a look at the Ravens drafts in 1996 through to 2000 (five years)
1999 Chris McAlister DB (to 2009, 26 int), Brandon Stokely WR (4R, to 2013, 397Rec/5339 yds/39 TD)
2000 Jamal Lewis (10.6k RushYds 4.17 avg, 58TD; 221Rec 1879yds, 4TD); Travis Taylor WR (312rec 4017yds 22TD) and in the 6R find Adalius Thomas LB (to 2009, 411 soloTack, 7int, 53sks)
the '96 draft was special; Simeon Rice (122 career sacks 403 solo tackles) and Marvin Harrison (HoF) were also first rounders. The Jets also got Ray Mickens 3R and Marcus Coleman 5R, both players who I liked alot, contributors, but in the 2nd round (the hated, cursed round for us...) the Jets took Alex Van Dyke who played 5 years and had 26 recept for 219 yards, while 4 slots later a guy named Amani Toomer (668 rec/9497 yds/54 TD) played until 2008 was picked by our crosstown relatives.
by comparison (groan...) here are Jets drafts in those years, with what-might-have-beens noted:
1996 Keyshawn Johnson
1997 James Farrior LB (went to Pitt, won SB there) and a Gem in the 7th round, Jason Ferguson, who like a Jason Fabini (4R, 1998 draft) turned into a late round-NFL Stud who found success in Parcells-coached NYJets
1998 see Jason Fabini above, no 1R or 2R picks (the 1R was forfeit to NE iirc, for Parcells)
1999 Randy Thomas (2R later went to Wash)
2000 this was the Shaun Ellis, Jonathan Abraham, Chad Pennington, Anthony Becht and Laveranues Coles (3R) draft. The "Parcells" draft.
A point about Newsome. Even in his first few years, when the Ravens weren't very good, he drafted some spectacularly great and many good players. I say, Ditto to Douglas although Joe's work is not yet at the level of an Ozzie. But it's getting there I think, and I think he's showing perserverance and sticking to the plan like he learned with Ozzie.
Comparison: Douglas' stud picks: Gardner, Wilson, Hall, Johnson II. Very good picks: Mitchell (late round rough gem), Clemons (yeah Deebo!!!).
Head scratcher picks: in 2000 draft, taking Becton over Wirfs (2 spots later to TB) - well, more a risk than a head scratcher; Becton's tape showed a beast, no injury history... and Mekhi played like a beast in his rookie year. Using 20/20 hindsight, i'd say it's best to stay away from 390# linemen - the NFL competition where even a bench rider is better than 99% of what he faced in college and the toll of a 17 game season with that much weight, well we see the injury history on that.
Shit/give them a chance see what they got picks: 2020 draft: Ashtyn Davis S (3R, pick 68) when Brandon Jones S (3R pick 70, to MIA - 115 soloTack, 8sks) was there. And my personal, WTF was he thinking? pick - Zabari Zuniga (3R pick 79 for 6 soloTack) when a stud LB named Alex Highsmith (3R pick 102 to PITT - 108 soloTack, 20sks) was still there. Both of these were really big fails, Douglas takes the blame on this.
A give'em a chance pick in the 2020 draft that worked out well: Bryce Hall - 5R, 99soloTack who dropped because of injury in college, did pretty good for us.
Other picks still not completely rated: Mims (2R)
the 2021 and 2022 drafts speak for themselves: Zach Wilson - headed for the Psych Ward, we'll see if he's a bust after his next NFL stop, but he's done here in NY. Aside from that blazing headache of a realization, there are AVT (superpower stud OLine), Elijah Moore (a mini-Steve Smith if Lafleur can figure out how to use him on quick slants into the middle 8-20yard range of the defensive backfield), Carter Prime & Carter Squared; and Brandin Echols who has turned into a Pretty. Good. Slot cover guy.
The 2022 draft will go down, hopefully, as a better draft than the 2000 where Parcells chose such great players (Shaun Ellis is my favorite; his Jersey is draped over the passenger seat of my 2013 Mustang GT Convertible - so EVERYBODY can SEE IT when I drive by :-)
Final note, since i've been chatting GM all this time. Outside of Elijah Moore and AVT who were definitely 1st round talent, the other guys, along with the team already present, have been developed by Saleh. He deserves great credit for this. One of the things he said last year which sticks with me, when he was talking about young later round draft picks, and i'm paraphrasing him, "... these guys whether #1 picks or 6th, 7th rounders, are all the best of the best. World class athletes. The main difference between why a guy is picked 1st and why he's picked in later rounds? Reps. Number of reps. You give these guys the reps to learn and they will get better. Some faster than others, but they will all get better. Because they're professional athletes. "
So yeah, I'd give Saleh the room to himself grow and make needed changes on the coaching staff. Like getting a more experienced QB coach. Like telling Ulbrich to not sit on his dominant front four tactic and instead go a little crazy/unpredictable by sending 5 or 6 guys in every once in a while - make the opposing O-coord shit his own pants once a while and not be sure of just what the Jets D is going to do.
Anyways enough, it's always great chatting with my fellow Jets fans. When I go to the games and look up around the stands, and see all my folks in green and white, I always smile like a kid - it's a great feeling.
good points Steve - what i can add is that even when you're a very good management type, it's still very difficult to get the right combo of superior talent, longevity/health, coaching together into winning packages. Newsome's first four years as a manager? 1996 - 1999, losing records every year but 1999, where they finished .500 (Ted Marchibroda was the coach b4 Billick).
I do agree on AShton Davis, I really liked Pinnock better. And I give him, personal opinion here, 2 years on the OLine rebuild, as that is when he was able to draft OLinemen; the first year he inherited Macagnan/Gase dungpiles.
The Punter? Yeah, he's gotta go; overall average dudn't matter much when you lay out a couple of game killing stinkers every week.
David, a lot of people are saying get Sean Payton. Problem with him, is that the Saints still have him under contract. They say it will take a first round pick to get him.
How about Woody going after Jim Harbaugh, if this blows up this week
Disappointing again to see them come out and stay flat. MW missed a lot of throws.
Two positive observations: The play by play announcers pointed out that Braden Mann pivoted or cantered the punt or it would have been blocked. Looking back at the replay I could see it. For a 24 yard punt I have to say it was a good play.
S Tony Adam’s filled in for LaMarcus Joyner and I saw him make a number of plays. He had two big hits off the top of my head. We have a FS or at least a very good backup!
I think I need to find better ways to use my time, but if I'm going to continue to watch the Jets, my hope is that the organization learns from its mistakes. The combination of hiring a highly-regarded coordinator (usually defensive), pairing him with a rookie QB and a bad offensive line is not working. I think Douglas and Saleh should get another year, but I think they have to make changes to the staff and cut ties with or renegotiate contracts with Carl Lawson, Corey Davis, and C.J. Uzomah to improve the team starting with a QB. Douglas deserves to be on the hot seat for striking out with his entire first draft and the QB and needs to approach next season as his last chance to build a playoff team in NY.
Pete Carrol out coached Robert Saleh. Pete’s team was ready, the Jets were not. The Jets defense improved this year and may have found their Safety for 2023, in Tony Adams, but the Offense is in shambles, and Special Teams needs some work. Saleh needs to be ruthless with this coaching staff. Every Offensive Coach’s job is up for review. Mike La Fleur is out of his depth, but he may have some upside, cautionary tale here of hiring your friends. It’s Saleh’s call, but I keep Mike for continuity, and because of the success of the Green Bay & SF Offenses. Banging the Drum as always for a Veteran Passing Game Coordinator that replaces our WR Coach, and acts as a sounding board for MLF and aides in Mike’s development. John Benton is an 18 year NFL Offensive Line Coach, and supposedly a Wide Zone Guru, and currently the Running Game Coordinator. In John’s Defense, the Offensive Line has had massive injuries, and there may be a question of how current players fit the system, but the Offensive Line has underperformed. It is prudent to strip John immediately of his Running Game Coordinator duties and find some one else. In reviewing Benton’s performance, I think you have to look at blocking schemes, and how they work for current personnel, and if you need to implement other power based schemes , even for merely a change up.
The Jets have 4 QB’s on the roster , but actually they have none. You keep Zach as number two next year, because of the CAP hit, and you work like hell on trying to develop the guy. Jets don’t have money to land a top tier QB, going with Brissett, Minshaw or Bridgewater.
I agree, I'd keep Lafluer but bring in help for him. MLF showed creativity earlier but was overwhelmed, and didn't seem to know how to adjust when his OL fell apart and QB couldn't make a throw. TBF most offenses fall apart with that. White was overthrowing and under-throwing.
We hired Lafleur with a plan to have a dominant OL, strong running game behind it, talented TE and WR's, and a young QB. Clearly this all shifted.
I view MLF as an ascending talent; he's still learning. Remember, 2023 decisions are for the 2023 version of the coach, not 2022. He might still be improving.
Our OL talent was decimated with injuries, which hurt our talent level, but from a chemistry standpoint, the guys that played were actually together most of the year. Brown+Laken+CMG+Herbig were the 4 for much of the year. They kept missing assignments and couldn't handle stunts, sometimes resulting in Tomlinson blocking nobody. These 4 mostly played together, so I'd assume they don't understand their assignment in the scheme? But LT played in the same scheme last year. I assume that's on the coaching. or maybe these veterans just aren't very coachable? I'm hoping JD knows the issue, bec our OL was the biggest breakdown of 2022.
Re QB - I'd like to see the tape breakdowns for skill and scheme fit, but I think we're a strong playoff team if we had Carr at QB this year. He'll be expensive. Assuming we have ZW as backup, MFW doesn't have a role.
This will be the last time that I post “ I’ve been a Jet fan since 1963”
This current 5 game losing streak is the worse that I have ever seen by the Jets. Worse than any losing streak under Kotite, Carroll’s streak, the 10-1 start that ended 10-6.
Any Jet fan with a pulse knew in their hearts that when Walker broke off that 60 yard run, the season was over.
The most damming thing yesterday wasn’t the continuous putrid quarterback play or LeFleur’s idiotic play calling, it was that this team came out flatter than a pancake. That’s on Saleh, he had 10 days to get this team ready, he failed horribly.
When he was hired, a bunch of his old 49ers team all said the same thing, we love to play for him. Based on yesterday’s continuous underwhelming performances does it seem like the players love playing for him because they didn’t really play at all yesterday.
The Johnsons paid 660 million for the Jets, the team is worth in the billions.
Woodhead and Clueless Chris can’t use the excuse they don’t want to pay for a new staff if they fire Saleh.
Between the PSL Ponzi scheme, ticket prices, parking prices and tv money they can afford to fire Saleh if they want.
There is no logical explanation that LeFleur is still around here after 1/8/23. If Saleh won’t fire him, then bye bye coach, because season ticket holders don’t get discounts when the HC hires his best friends brother who was an OC only one year in his life with a division 3 college.
Every Monday morning, Peter King releases a huge column. It covers all aspects of football, plus other stories. Not one word today about the Jets, nothing. You can’t be anymore irrelevant when your not mentioned in a football column that mentions the president of the Yankees or some friend of Kings who won a $30,000 suicide pool. Not one word.
When the Jets got beat in 1969 by the Chiefs in the playoffs the year after the Super Bowl win. Namath basically said, tough loss today, but I see us back in the Super Bowl in the immediate future.
That was 52 years ago. I’m 74, beat prostate cancer, and I can honestly say the way things look today, I can’t even see them in the playoffs.
The day after the Green Bay game, I sat in a airport in Appleton,Wisconsin and actually said to myself. I think they finally got it right with JD and Saleh. I should have known better. It’s still the same old Jets, they aren’t winning anything in my lifetime, that’s for sure.
Lot of very good points here and you're right about the irrelevance, that's so incredibly damning to a team who just two months ago we're all over the national sports news.
We faded into football obscurity over the last month and I know that's going to be hard to take for Woody. I don't think they'll fire Saleh but two things really worried me over the last week or two:
1) His comments about it not being about the playoffs. I'm sure his intentions were sound, but when your team is in the hunt and that team hasn't been to the playoffs in 11 years (now 12) then it absolutely has to be about the playoffs.
2) How flat the team came out. Defense gave up 17 points in the first 3 drives before recovering. The offense never recovered.
I liked the hiring of MLF at the time, but someone has to take the fall and if I were a betting man, I'd say it's him.
re Playoffs, i think people are misreading it. His point is that the HC can't think about playoffs when the team is playing poorly. There's so much they need to get on track, and then the focus is what they can control. Saleh has said in the past that they need to control what they can control. Playoffs are out of their control. Jets needed to focus on doing what they needed to do to win, and not worry about playoff scenarios.
Re MLF, i hope they don't fire him, but rather bring in more support. He's a young OC that showed he has creativity and ideas, but struggled to adjust when we lacked talent. TBF, our OL couldn't block consistently and every QB was so inaccurate. Really difficult to game-plan around that.
I'm so frustrated with the OL. It's been JD's biggest focus from Day 1, but we haven't seen results. So many injuries. Maybe it'll look better with AVT and Becton and a R1 OT added.
Totally disagree on LeFleur. Seattle was 30th against the run, so what doe LeFleur call 17 runs and 46 passes. This has nothing to do with lack of talent. The Jets averaged 4.4 yard a carry yesterday. He had plenty of time to run. Opening drive, second half, 3 incompletions, 3 and out. That is mind blowing
Can't go by totals, bec we were down 2 TD in the 4th quarter. Can't go by averages - they're skewed by a few big runs that balance out a bunch of drive killing no gains.
If I'm being critical of Lafleur, I think it's this -
An important job for the OC is to maximize the available talent, and I'm not sure he did that. Elijah Moore seemed like a breakout candidate but regressed.
But - how much blame is the terrible QB play and porous OL? I'm not sure
Stay in the fight!
Bobber, so why is this your last post? Did this game change your fandom? Hey, it was disappointing. I get it. But for the first time in a long time I do see a light at the end of the tunnel. This is not the time to bail.
Not going anywhere, what I meant to say was I’m not going to say “I’ve been a Jet fan since 1963”. I just don’t want to bore people
I was born in 63'
Well - Like Bobber - this will be my last rant. Robert "all ass no gas" Saleh turned out to be a trerrible coach - I have said this in this space before - him and Douglas can go a week from today. I was smart enugh to go to the NY Ranger game after the 60 yard "game is over' play. I only turned it on in between periods. Guess what the Rangers scored 1 less point then The Jets. I've also stated in this space that White stinks always have always will. His comment that "The doctors cleared me to play" smells like - he really shouldn't have as he was hurting. Flacco should have started that game. Saleh has the audacity to state "we are close and have a core". For what the XFL ? This team is no closer to the playoffs then they were when Gase won 7 games. I dont want to hear "Douglas knows how to draft" Anyone in the world would pick Gardner and G. Wilson - its beyond obvious the guy doesnt not know what he is doing. Like Bobber - i've been a Jets fan since the 60's. This has to be the worse collapse in thier history. They raised the season ticket prices to the tune of $25.00 bucks a ticket - They are forcing me to make a decision i dont want to make but i'm tired of spending all that money, wasting a whole day for no return what so ever for people in charge that don't care. Woody better call Payton right away or they are looking at a 5 win season next year -
hey Steve -
I'll just comment on Douglas, I think we keep him and not fall prey to this "ya had three years and didn't get it done; you're OUDDAHERE!!!" mentality.
Longevity, in the front office and if you're lucky, on your coaching staffs - is the one common denominator for the most successful, most emulated teams in the NFL. The Steelers (three head coaches in 53 years). The Patriots. The Packers.
Here's why Douglas must stay. His DNA. He worked with Ozzie Newsome for fifteen years.
Ozzie Newsome was the greatest NFL GM over the past twenty years. He was the Ravens GM from 1996 - 2018. Joe was learning from him from 2000, i think to 2014. And I'm gonna go over the Ravens records in that 2000 to 2015 time frame. Am also including notable names either who was coaching, or great players (which Ozzie brought in...) during those years --
2000 - Superbowl victors
Season Records over those years:
2000 12-4 (Ray Lewis, DPOY & SB-MVP) (Brian Billick coach 2000-2007)
2001 10-6
2002 7-9
2003 10-6 (Jamal Lewis OPOY, Ray Lewis DPOY, Terrell Suggs DROY)
2004 9-7 (Ed Reed DPOY)
2005 6-10
2006 13-3
2007 5-11
2008 11-5 (lost AFC Championship game) (John Harbaugh coach 2008 - *
2009 9-7 (lost Division playoff)
2010 12-4 (lost Division playoff)
2011 12-4 (lost AFC Championship) (Terrell Suggs DPOY)
2012 10-6 Super Bowl Victors (Joe Flacco SB MVP)
2013 8-8
2014 10-6 (lost Division playoff)
2015 5-11
2016 8-8
2017 9-7
2018 10-6 (lost Wild Card playoff)
2019 14-2 (lost Division playoff) (Lamar Jackson MVP; John Harbaugh COY)
2020 11-5 (lost Division playoff)
Though Newsome left after 2018, I included the 2019 and 2020 seasons because for at least a couple seasons after his retirement, the teams were still essentially the same personnel groupings he had put together, especially the drafted players. Newsome drafted Lamar Jackson in his last year as GM; Lamar was the league MVP the year after.
Now, why would I spend all this time/writeup about an outside GM? Because Joe Douglas was there for 15 years. He was part of two Superbowl wins, saw consistent excellence; was there when the team had losing records, and was there when the Ravens bounced back from a losing season (which they never had two consecutive losing seasons in this period) and returned to contender form. He was there when the Ravens drafted Jamal Lewis, Terrell Suggs, Ed Reed, Joe Flacco and Lamar Jackson. Two Hall of Famers in that group. As Ozzie was putting together these teams, Douglas was right there next to him. OH, and by the way, Ozzie hired John Harbaugh, coach now for 15 years and counting.
Ozzie's knowledge and record speak loud and clear. His longevity, especially returning from losing seasons back to not only respectability, but league-wide excellence, simply blows any "three strikes yer OUT!" approach to NFL management. That's like comparing Chess to Tic-Tac-Toe.
Joe Douglas learned all this. And all the knowledge, experience, wisdom that Ozzie shared with Joe, is here now with him as our GM.
Now, I don't know if GOD gives football teams and fans much thought, but since I Know for a Fact that GOD made me a Jets fan (see my profile remarks), I pray that Woody Johnson does not get rid of Joe, keeps him and lets Joe mold our Jets into a team that can do the above, just like he saw Ozzie do it with the Ravens.
Now LaFleur, on the other hand? That's another conversation...
CGVet58
Jets 4 EVER
Season ticket holder for 37 years. When the Johnsons started with the PSL Ponzi scheme, I said adios. I have DirecTV, I get the football package. My bathroom about 15 feet from my tv/ chair. Refrigerator about 20 feet away. Car parked outside for free. No traffic, no rain, no snow always 68 degrees. Happy as can be. Johnsons destroyed the fan base. They made the stadium a neutral site. Johnsons have no sense of loyalty to their fans. When the Jets were 7-4 they had the balls to send out season ticket applications for next season, with a $25 dollar increase. If they waited to mail the applications today, they would have been forced to give a $25 dollar discount. I’m sure a % of fans won’t renew after yesterday’s shit show
hey David,
If Frogs had handguns, Birds wouldn't Eff with them.
hard but accurate description - we are (and will see better after the pain subsides...) a better team than last year, but in a way i'm sort of glad we don't make the playoffs this year because we're clearly not ready - and to have made the playoffs would have meant a lower draft pick (and we need the best ones we can get).
LaFleur pisses me off. Using the TE's in the passing game exposed the Hawks secondary. I don't care if there were 3 drops from that group, you stick with it, just like you shudda stuck with the run game. Oh, and by the way, I question these as being called "drops". I'm old school; I believe if you as the receiver can put one hand on the ball, that's a 50-50 catch. If you put both hands on the ball (as Uzomah did...) then you CATCH THE DAMN BALL! I don't care if you gotta stretch for it, don't care if it doesn't hit you in the numbers. Ya TOUCH it, ya CATCH it!
Mike White - boy did that bubble pop too quick for me! Worst thing about his play, he consistently throws the ball behind the receiver. A couple of plays to Wilson alone - had White placed the ball in front of him, allowing to catch it in stride, Garrett would still be running. And you could tell that Garrett was frustrated with the behind-the-stride throws, but his reactions were quite muted.
Really, I think if we would have had a better quarterback this year, like a Derek Carr or Jimmy Garrapalo, we would have seen Garrett be THE #1 Receiver in the league. Yes, there - I said it. And we'd be looking at both the OROY and DROY. Garrett is just. That. Good. And a truly fierce competitor, his boyish-like love and joy for the game - to the point of celebrating like a kid in a sandlot game when his teammate scores - I luv that about this kid - not withstanding, this kid does not quit.
And when I think of what-might-have-been... had we actually had a good, consistent quarterback, had Breece Hall not gone down with an injury (two candidates for OROY? Ya Betcha!!!)... (sigh...). Well so much for that dream; if frogs had handguns than birds wouldn't eff with them.
So David, summary - we improved, but not-there-yet. Time to look forward to what needs to be done:
1) get a new Quarterback. Jimmy G or Derek Carr. Win-Now. Plus draft a prospect in 3R or 4R.
> How? package Zach to someone who believes they can do a better job fixing him, 'cause as far as New York is concerned, that train left the station. He can get fixed, but it can't happen here (Saleh, I disagree with you on your statements, time to display best-for-team over best-for-very-gifted-but-SCREWED-up-player). Yes I know, it'll cost - but what's the cost in comparison of having a team with an excellent defense and tremendous playmakers (Hall, Knight, Wilson, Moore, Conklin) GO TO WASTE because your QB is losing games for you?
2) FIX THE OFFENSIVE LINE! AVT is a rock solid. Keep Mitchell & Herbig, they showed enough for me to feel comfortable that they can get better, alot better with good coaching, proper scheming. GOODBYE Tomlinson. Overpaid, and overvalued. THANK YOU FOR STEPPING UP, Duane. I like you, but not for the money that you're getting paid (and lets face it, both these guys raked in Big Bucks because of the Becton-Fant injuries and JD NEEDED to stop the O-Line bleeding). David, your observation on yesterdays fiasco, that Laurence Duvernay-T was the best OLineman out there - man on man, but sometimes I really, really do not like when the Truth hurts like this.
> How? Draft, my man, the Draft! If we're not putting 3 of the top 4 picks we have into the OLine, then I'm worried. OK, so if we get Carr via trade, that calculus will suffer, but you get my drift. Only starters or guys who have started which I think we should keep - AVT, McGovern, Herbig, Mitchell. And yes, Becton, but only because of his rookie contract, and really, 2023 is his last chance to fix this.
2a) Also explicitly stating here and now. sports media/shark tank has been making noises about Douglas failing to fix this. Those guys are full of it; Joe has been working minor miracles in the face of tremendous adversity.
2a - point one: Start with Becton; what are the odds that he's out for two years? The fault on the Becton issue, i believe, lies with the Jets team in allowing him to work on getting better outside of the team facilities (and monitoring/guidance/management). They should have kept him in 1JD, and pressed to have him on a weight program, get him down to 330 from the 380 he was lugging around.
2a - point two: Injuries. We've had six starting offensive tackles. This is Joe's fault?
2a - point three: Free Agents signed. Tomlinson and Brown - both vets with very good to great resumes, both fighting against Father Time (who ultimately gets us all). Both knew the Jets were desperately in need of OLine help. Both their contracts reflect they knew this, and took advantage of it. What alternatives did Douglas have at the time of signing? You know you're gonna pay, cause there are no freebies in this scenario, so you structure the contract as best you can, in a way that the mercenary agents for this guys know will get their clients good $$$, while leaving your team in the best possible shape to cut bait if things don't work out as you hope. In the case of Tomlinson and Brown, their deficiencies - in pass blocking, run blocking... in short, in playing as competent OFFENSIVE LINEMEN - just ran into Father Time about 3 games ago. Am not condemning their effort; I think they gave it their best - but their best just ran out of steam.
OH, and by the way, on the above weaknesses in pass protection? I don't know what you may see in the tape upon replaying the game, but it seems like in LaFleur's scheme, he doesn't much like keeping a back in for pass protection very often.
3) COACHING. Yes, we talk about LaFleur alot and with good reason... but I got serious beefs with Ulbrich - and beyond that, with Saleh from a philosophy standpoint.
3a) Philosophy first. Yes, we have a dominant front-four, but if the back seven are playing keep-the-ball-in-front-of-you, then a well run West Coast offense stressing quick passes to capable playmakers has consistently defeated our defensive strength. As Geno and the Hawks did, as Trevor and Jags did last week, as the Bills, the Vikings, the Patriots have done... gee whiz, I can almost see a trend in that!!! OH, and by the way, this "keep the ball in front of you, avoid chunk plays" bullshit? Well, the Hawks still got plenty of good chunk plays yesterday, didn't they? That's a weakness here - and has been for our Defense all year long. Why didn't the Jets blitz more this game? Geno's stats showed him to be a much less capable QB when being pressured. He had TIME to get the play out, and if our front-four rush is not unsettling him, than Ulbrich should have been sending five guys more often. And not just on passing downs, but 1st and 2nd downs, too. In situations where the Hawks wouldn't expect him to. Remember, these teams watch our tape as much as we do theirs; and I'd say that in their eyes, Ulbrich is almost boringly predictable in this regard. And if you're gonna blitz more, than your guys can't sit back in the usual "keep it in front of you" scheme; press coverage; chip that TE coming off the line, check those Receivers as they start their routes; take that split-second AWAY from their timing routes - do not just let them HAVE that time, KEEP their initiative, and run their play while we wait for our front four to get there and REACT to THEM. Dammit, I hate that! Defenses should always, always, always be ATTACKING the offense! Get them out of their rythym, make THEM REACT to YOU.
Is it a risk? Damn right it is... higher chance of them getting big, chunk plays when you do this. But - considering (Ulbrich and Saleh, looking at you guys on this...) that they were getting chunk plays anyways in our normal scheme - what did you have to lose by using this mind-*^$k psychology against them? It's like Deja-Vu all over again, like teams stacking the box against Zach, daring him to beat them with the passing game, except on the defense side in that they know Ulbrich won't bring additionaly pressure so they tailor their Offensive plans accordingly.
Finally on defense, the tackling deficiencies are glaringly obvious - and that's on coaching and practice - so Ulbrich and Saleh, what ITF are you guys DOING about this??
Well that's it for me, I'm spent this morning - knowing we're better than last year is OK, but compared to knowing we had the chance to be even better, but weren't - that effin' hurts, man.
CGVet58
Jets 4 EVER! Even when I feel like shit...
CGVet58- first, making a minor assumption here, but thank you for your service.
Second, you must type waaayyy better than me, and I appreciate that b/c I agree w/ your comments and POV.
I agree wholeheartedly about the need for FO stability being paramount to success. Joe D must stay, he knows the job. I'm not thrilled w/ Saleh in regards to some in-game decisions, like punting on 4th and 2, late in the game Sunday (I was there btw, my son's first NFL game!). But I think the HC is much more about culture and 30,000 ft view, not all, but mostly....coming out flat in a do-or-die falls on the HC and team leaders. Saleh can be our long-term coach, he'll get better and be great some day.
I don't have the same view of LaFleur as I do Saleh. Done w/ that experiment. Matt LaFleur, yes, Mike a firm "no".
Carr should not be overly expensive given that LV has played its hand and is up against a huge money deadline. Give them Zach, Corey davis and the lowest round pick we can get away with. Plan B for me would be Minshew. I'm in the NW and saw him at WSU, love his attitude and grit; his skills are better than many, he's got Streveler fight w/ an arm.
After QB our three priorities should be; create a dominant O Line, create a dominant O Line and then create a DOMINANT O Line.
hey Klecko -
thank you, yes, 24 years - USN 8 years ('76-'84) and USCG 16 ('84-2000). Yes, retired 23 years ago - where in the heck did the time go? And part of that, I was stationed in Seattle, back when the Kingdome was still up. Here's a memory flashback for you - Tim's Cascade Potato Chips, the Jalapeno ones - are they still the Bomb or what? And how about the Pecos Pit BBQ on First Ave South (corner of Stacy st)? hoo-wee i had me some goo-o-o-od sammishes from that place! Good memories, Seattle was a beautiful city, the Olympics, the Cascades, the Sound, the islands... and i can't believe that was almost 30 years ago for me. Damn!
I like Carr better than Garappolo; jimmy is fragile, imho. Plus, Carr has done amazing things despite not having a good D most of the time. Can you imagine him chuckin the rock to Wilson, Moore, Hall, Knight, the TE's? Hell yeah, woodie!!! I sure can!
O-Line, O-line, O-LINE! Yes, brother, abso-effin-lutely. I miss the days of Brick and Mangold anchoring the best O-Line in the league, and 10 years running, too! - Brick was the original IronMan, only missing One Snap and that was because it was a trick play. And how about when Kevin Mawae would pull and head downfield in front of Curtis? Never had so much fun yellin'/shouting for a 330# beast to knock everybody down while truckin' down the field LOL! Good memories, hopefully Wilson, Moore, Hall, AVT, Knight & Conklin will light up some more for us fans. Hopefully with Derek Carr at the helm.
Be well, brother - have a great 2023.
CGVet58 - JETS or Nothing At All!!!
Appears Mike White was no where near where he should have been to be the QB in terms of health. If I wanted to see passes that bad, they should have put Zach behind center. The offense was neither prepared nor motivated. The defense, while they seemed to play hard, missed so many tackles. They made RB Walker look like Walter Payton. I would have loved to see Saleh chew out his players and coaches. He had the look of a man getting his butt kicked and there was nothing he could do about it. (I've been there and it isn't fun.). Coach Saleh must never allow such poor play calling and performance to ever happen again.
Development questions -
Is JJ ready to be our starting Edge? If so, I assume we cut Lawson?
Can Ruckert have a meaningful role next year? JD said he was a bulldog in run blocking. We needed run blocking help but didn't see him. Would love to see it. Uzomah can't be cut for a year so we'll need a plan for the 3 of them. will we use 3 TE set like Seattle? Can Ruckert play some FB like the Ravens?
Max Mitchell was a developmental OT/OG to eventually be a starter. Are we ready for that time to be today? If so I'd still draft OL in R1 but that would shift our strategy.
RB - Bam was a KR in college. Assuming Breece is healthy, can Bam replace Berrios at KR?
Breece + Bam + MC. Bye J-Rob and bye Ty Johnson.
Can Clemons take on more, being the 3rd edge?
Will we resign Huff? He's been a big part of our 3rd down, paired with Lawson. Can Huff take on a bigger role, or have we discovered the way to use his strengths without his weakness?
Can Quincy develop some instincts and discipline? He's much improved but I'm skeptical
Can we get Moore back to the ascending prospect he looked like in his rookie season? Use him as a slot WR and occasionally outside
If we had to cut Corey Davis for salary, do we have any confidence Mims grows again? I don't. Do we sign a similar WR, or tweak the offense for a guy like Mims to be successful?
What happened to Bryce Hall?
https://twitter.com/jcaporoso/status/1609898100000186370?s=51&t=h4R65GOd-cq7lVe1loWNaA
Thanks CG - good detective work ! This is all well and good but basically Douglas is a nincumpoop. His free agent signings atrocious (The Jets have no safeties) Davis doesnt stay on the field same with Lawson - every lineman he signs gets injured. He just cant stay and run another draft - and then you add in all ass no gas as a coach your talking same old jets - Im done i cant support this mess any longer 50 plus years and im done !
positions to consider for draft and FA -
-OT - starter to upgrade Brown or add depth behind Becton. (I assume we let Fant walk. I'd take him as a swing tackle if he doesn't find a team that wants him to start.
-Safety - need 2! Adams is solid as 3rd safety. Whitehead was bad at most aspects of the position. Joyner is sub par. Draft a starter on Day 2, and let him start immediately.
-C- to replace CMG if we don't resign him.
-LB - Quincy is FA. Plus we need a CJ replacement in 2024. Quincy improved but still over runs the play. CJ is great, but expensive for a 2 down LB. I think a day 2 pick starts next to CJ.
-WR - if cutting Corey Davis. Mims isn't ready to assume most of the role. Maybe we spend less here, now that it's WR2 or WR 3
-iDL - pair with Q so we don't get gashes by run. Guys like Rankins are OK for another year
-KR /PR to replace Berrios. Zonovan has KR experience, which can work if Breece and MC are healthy
Punter to replace Mann. He's been terrible. It's time.
-OG - to eventually replace Laken. Dead money may mean he stays for one year. If so we still should consider a mid round pick to develop and add depth. He's been the most disappointing FA signing.
What did I miss?
Fine - CB, Edge, TE. I think that's it.
Hi David
Really enjoy your posts, they are so detailed, you could well be the Jets Stats guru, or keeping MLF on a short leash, advising the best plays etc!
When do your posts become subscriber-paid only (apart from Mondays).
Thanks
yes been season ticket holder for 39 years now - thats enough
I do like watching it live better then on TV but just cant continue to supposrt this nonsense.
Hey CG - thanks for taking all the time to document this - inpressive. I knew he came being schooled by Newsome or at least expsoed to him all those years. However, in today's NFL it doesnt take 5 years (counting next year) to build at least a playoff team. Just blowing two number 1 picks one of them the second overall pick should get him fired. Becton is a total bust he couldnt have done his homework on that one. The punter he wont get off of. Ashton Davis ? He has tried to build a offensive line 4 straight years and has failed very year. There is nothing for him to build on top of there as his drafting is so bad. Time to bring in someone else in and all ass no gas can go with him.
hey Steve,
went digging a little deeper on Newsome, cause he sure didn't reach elite GM status until starting his 5th year at the helm. So I took a look at the Ravens drafts in 1996 through to 2000 (five years)
Player(s) drafted who turned out to be studs:
1996 Ray Lewis (HoF); Jonathan Ogden (HoF)
1997 Peter Boulware LB (DROY 1997); Jamie Sharper LB (to 2005, 644 sTac, 25.5 sks)
1998 no one that stuck
1999 Chris McAlister DB (to 2009, 26 int), Brandon Stokely WR (4R, to 2013, 397Rec/5339 yds/39 TD)
2000 Jamal Lewis (10.6k RushYds 4.17 avg, 58TD; 221Rec 1879yds, 4TD); Travis Taylor WR (312rec 4017yds 22TD) and in the 6R find Adalius Thomas LB (to 2009, 411 soloTack, 7int, 53sks)
the '96 draft was special; Simeon Rice (122 career sacks 403 solo tackles) and Marvin Harrison (HoF) were also first rounders. The Jets also got Ray Mickens 3R and Marcus Coleman 5R, both players who I liked alot, contributors, but in the 2nd round (the hated, cursed round for us...) the Jets took Alex Van Dyke who played 5 years and had 26 recept for 219 yards, while 4 slots later a guy named Amani Toomer (668 rec/9497 yds/54 TD) played until 2008 was picked by our crosstown relatives.
by comparison (groan...) here are Jets drafts in those years, with what-might-have-beens noted:
1996 Keyshawn Johnson
1997 James Farrior LB (went to Pitt, won SB there) and a Gem in the 7th round, Jason Ferguson, who like a Jason Fabini (4R, 1998 draft) turned into a late round-NFL Stud who found success in Parcells-coached NYJets
1998 see Jason Fabini above, no 1R or 2R picks (the 1R was forfeit to NE iirc, for Parcells)
1999 Randy Thomas (2R later went to Wash)
2000 this was the Shaun Ellis, Jonathan Abraham, Chad Pennington, Anthony Becht and Laveranues Coles (3R) draft. The "Parcells" draft.
A point about Newsome. Even in his first few years, when the Ravens weren't very good, he drafted some spectacularly great and many good players. I say, Ditto to Douglas although Joe's work is not yet at the level of an Ozzie. But it's getting there I think, and I think he's showing perserverance and sticking to the plan like he learned with Ozzie.
Comparison: Douglas' stud picks: Gardner, Wilson, Hall, Johnson II. Very good picks: Mitchell (late round rough gem), Clemons (yeah Deebo!!!).
Head scratcher picks: in 2000 draft, taking Becton over Wirfs (2 spots later to TB) - well, more a risk than a head scratcher; Becton's tape showed a beast, no injury history... and Mekhi played like a beast in his rookie year. Using 20/20 hindsight, i'd say it's best to stay away from 390# linemen - the NFL competition where even a bench rider is better than 99% of what he faced in college and the toll of a 17 game season with that much weight, well we see the injury history on that.
Shit/give them a chance see what they got picks: 2020 draft: Ashtyn Davis S (3R, pick 68) when Brandon Jones S (3R pick 70, to MIA - 115 soloTack, 8sks) was there. And my personal, WTF was he thinking? pick - Zabari Zuniga (3R pick 79 for 6 soloTack) when a stud LB named Alex Highsmith (3R pick 102 to PITT - 108 soloTack, 20sks) was still there. Both of these were really big fails, Douglas takes the blame on this.
A give'em a chance pick in the 2020 draft that worked out well: Bryce Hall - 5R, 99soloTack who dropped because of injury in college, did pretty good for us.
Other picks still not completely rated: Mims (2R)
the 2021 and 2022 drafts speak for themselves: Zach Wilson - headed for the Psych Ward, we'll see if he's a bust after his next NFL stop, but he's done here in NY. Aside from that blazing headache of a realization, there are AVT (superpower stud OLine), Elijah Moore (a mini-Steve Smith if Lafleur can figure out how to use him on quick slants into the middle 8-20yard range of the defensive backfield), Carter Prime & Carter Squared; and Brandin Echols who has turned into a Pretty. Good. Slot cover guy.
The 2022 draft will go down, hopefully, as a better draft than the 2000 where Parcells chose such great players (Shaun Ellis is my favorite; his Jersey is draped over the passenger seat of my 2013 Mustang GT Convertible - so EVERYBODY can SEE IT when I drive by :-)
Final note, since i've been chatting GM all this time. Outside of Elijah Moore and AVT who were definitely 1st round talent, the other guys, along with the team already present, have been developed by Saleh. He deserves great credit for this. One of the things he said last year which sticks with me, when he was talking about young later round draft picks, and i'm paraphrasing him, "... these guys whether #1 picks or 6th, 7th rounders, are all the best of the best. World class athletes. The main difference between why a guy is picked 1st and why he's picked in later rounds? Reps. Number of reps. You give these guys the reps to learn and they will get better. Some faster than others, but they will all get better. Because they're professional athletes. "
So yeah, I'd give Saleh the room to himself grow and make needed changes on the coaching staff. Like getting a more experienced QB coach. Like telling Ulbrich to not sit on his dominant front four tactic and instead go a little crazy/unpredictable by sending 5 or 6 guys in every once in a while - make the opposing O-coord shit his own pants once a while and not be sure of just what the Jets D is going to do.
Anyways enough, it's always great chatting with my fellow Jets fans. When I go to the games and look up around the stands, and see all my folks in green and white, I always smile like a kid - it's a great feeling.
CGVet58
Jets Para Siempre!!!!
good points Steve - what i can add is that even when you're a very good management type, it's still very difficult to get the right combo of superior talent, longevity/health, coaching together into winning packages. Newsome's first four years as a manager? 1996 - 1999, losing records every year but 1999, where they finished .500 (Ted Marchibroda was the coach b4 Billick).
I do agree on AShton Davis, I really liked Pinnock better. And I give him, personal opinion here, 2 years on the OLine rebuild, as that is when he was able to draft OLinemen; the first year he inherited Macagnan/Gase dungpiles.
The Punter? Yeah, he's gotta go; overall average dudn't matter much when you lay out a couple of game killing stinkers every week.
David, a lot of people are saying get Sean Payton. Problem with him, is that the Saints still have him under contract. They say it will take a first round pick to get him.
How about Woody going after Jim Harbaugh, if this blows up this week
Disappointing again to see them come out and stay flat. MW missed a lot of throws.
Two positive observations: The play by play announcers pointed out that Braden Mann pivoted or cantered the punt or it would have been blocked. Looking back at the replay I could see it. For a 24 yard punt I have to say it was a good play.
S Tony Adam’s filled in for LaMarcus Joyner and I saw him make a number of plays. He had two big hits off the top of my head. We have a FS or at least a very good backup!
I think I need to find better ways to use my time, but if I'm going to continue to watch the Jets, my hope is that the organization learns from its mistakes. The combination of hiring a highly-regarded coordinator (usually defensive), pairing him with a rookie QB and a bad offensive line is not working. I think Douglas and Saleh should get another year, but I think they have to make changes to the staff and cut ties with or renegotiate contracts with Carl Lawson, Corey Davis, and C.J. Uzomah to improve the team starting with a QB. Douglas deserves to be on the hot seat for striking out with his entire first draft and the QB and needs to approach next season as his last chance to build a playoff team in NY.