I wrote this last night. I wanted to rant before reading David’s synopsis of the game.
Not trying to be a Debbie Downer but for the Jets to have any shot at the playoffs, they need to fix a few things.
It seems as if the Jets are playing two different defenses every game.
To win in this league, you can’t open up every game by letting teams score and go up and down the field in the first half.
I understand adjustments are made half time but you would think after 4 games the Jets would be better prepared for screens and quick passes that their opponents are using to slow the pass rush.
The Paul Hackett offense was back in the red zone yesterday. How can a team be in the red zone 5 times and never attempt one pass into the endzone. That is offensive malpractice. Denver going into the game had the 31st worst pass defense and the 32 worst run defense. Unfortunately as good as Breece Hall was yesterday, you can’t expect him to break one every play.
The distances on 4 of Zuerlein’s fgs were 30, 26,27 and 22 yards not exactly moon shots. You don’t win championships playing for fgs.
On Denver first sack, #52, hit Zach’s helmet and racked his hand over Zach’s face mask. The Jets have not been the recipient of a quarterback roughing call since 11/28/21, going on two years. Russell Wilson was a recipient of a roughing call today by the Jets. His looked like a love tap compared to Zach’s. It seems the roughing calls are made at the most inappropriate time of the game for the Jets. Sort of like a 12th man.
It’s getting to the point, that teams can mug Jermaine Johnson without any fear of retribution from the refs.
Someone in the Jet organization has to publicly address the roughing issue and the holding issue, it’s a joke it’s so noticeable.
Lastly, usually when you constantly hear an offensive linemen or a defensive backs name during a telecast, it means that they are getting beaten by their opponent. You never hear heard Bryce Hall’s name until he was caught holding on the two point conversion and then when he recovered the fumble. Evidently, the Broncos never attacked him or if they did, they were unsuccessful in trying.
Kudos to him to go from starter to benchwarmer to game winner.
As football fans, we have heard over the years about what a great coach, and offensive genius Sean Payton is. My question about him, “ When has he ever won anything without Drew Brees as his starting quarterback.
Great post, Bobber. Spot on. Woody needs to grow a pair and raise hell with the Commissioner and with the head of officials. If need be, he needs to threaten to publicly trash them and accuse them of fixing games, and inform them that he will pay any fines levied. One way or another, the BS bad calls and non-calls on roughing the passer (Zach) and holding JJ must stop! If it doesn't, maybe Woody needs to hire some NJ muscle to pay the Commissioner and Head of Officiating a "visit."
We beat a 1-3 team in a very sloppy ugly game. The defense made some adjustments in the second half that made the difference. Red Zone offense was horrendous, penalties in the Red Zone killed us. Special Teams, Zuerlein 5 for 5, Morested averaged 52 yards on 3 punts and then their is the Wolf. I was a big supporter of Bryce Hall for a long time, but he didn’t have a good summer, buried deep on the depth , I wanted him gone, very surprised that he made the 53, once again I was so wrong. Bryce was strong in coverage, was a consistent tackler, and scooped that ball up like a shortstop to put the game away ( that never happens). The Jets Defensive Line Rotation worked well in the Mile High City without Lawson, that front four was outstanding in the Fourth Quarter. Quincy on the Blitz is orgasmic , Offensive Coordinators burning the midnight oil trying to adjust to the Williams Brothers.. Jets need to get better, Zack needs to get a little more consistent, but he got more passing yards than the other Wilson, and I thought he ran the ball well. Nice to see Conklin and Hall flourishing. In petty news, Bill Belichek and Sean Payton are 1-4, couldn’t happen to nicer guys, let the dumpster fires continue.
I wish just once that Saleh would listen or talk to the SNY crew. Bart Scott, Willie Colon, & Connor Rogers could provide him and the O and D coordinators some good advice. The defense does not come out attacking - for some reason they wait till they get behind. The play calling was a atrocious - they dont trust the QB or just plain conservative. Zack Wilson is not a starting NFL QB. One would think he would have been somewhat better then the previous week and he wasnt. If they need him to win a game for you there is no way he is capable of doing that. However, with all this said - They somehow won a game against a crappy team and good for Hack. I wish we could beat the Eagles just ONCE - they woukd be 3-3 and prob not much better if Rogers played.
Totally agree with u on about everything. Zach had 2 fumbles, lucky we got them back and botched getting 3 points before halftime. Very fortunate to have Breece. He saved the day. Still bad play calling though. I remember reading something somewhere how Paul Hackett was a great play caller. I have been a Jet fan for quite awhile and as my memory serves me (without specifics) that he was a horrid and conservative play caller. Like father like son. No way we beat Philly playing like this. Defense will have to come out much stronger at the beginning as well.
Right Phil, I remember walking out of the old Giants stadium screaming and curing as was thousands of other Jets fans about Paul Hacketts play calling. How anyone can label him a great play caller is beyond me. Good that Nate got osme sort of revenge but gees
I just remembered that supposedly he was very close to Joe Montana. I guess if u attach urself to a legend like Nathaniel with Aaron anything is possible :)
I was wondering where your post was. Thanks for the link. That was a classy way to say "eff you" to Payhole. That's good, but imo evidently the flip side of that is that neither Saleh, nor Hackett used payback as a means of motivation for this game, or if so, they are lousy motivators, or the Jets just don't care. They should have been fiery and all over Denver on both offense and defense from the get-go, but they obviously weren't. I'm sure that Payhole tried to make Hackett look bad, and it looked like Denver may have been more motivated than the Jets were.
I know you have to be happy with Quincy's strip sack to win the game! You called it. Kudos to you!
The "Fire-and-Forget" Missile - I'm lovin' that Brich is using him more to augment the enormous pressure generated by our front four.
One thing I loved about this game; everyone could see how - by the middle of the 3rd quarter - our passrush with the keep-it-fresh stable of capable linemen, was just wearing down the Denver pass protection. Just effin' Love It!
Next Week, Eagles - Hackett better be scheming up pass-run-run, and play-action, and keeping a skill player back to help with the pass protection -- and also Dress HARDMAN UP! and More Ruckert, less Uzomah... and more Gipson on the offense... and try running some screens, too...
and most of all - Quick Release plays for Wilson - there was a point in the game where some one showed a stat for zach, for passes thrown 2.5 seconds or faster, and for passes taking more time for him.
In that graphic, Zach was 8 for 8; and with the longer passes, he was 2 for 5.
Now, not for nothing, but I still see Zach just not looking off the DB's. I'm going to see if i can get my hands on an all-22, get a closer look.
But yeah, a great win - and PayHole gets to be told by our coach to "stay humble" - Love It!
Yes, sir! More of those early passes with quick reads to get Zach's confidence going!! He looked excellent when he was hitting the top of his drop and firing to his first read. He even had a few nice progressions late. His strike to Conklin sticks out. Conklin, also, needs to get the ball a bit more, if only because I love seeing that unfrozen caveman truck suckas!
I'm in Florida on vacation, so I didn't see the game, but a win is a win is a win. I have on DVR and will watch it when I get home. After such success last week against KC, I don't understand why Hackett got so conservative, especially in the red zone. But his coaching bloodline is Paul Hackett, so no one should be surprised. Zack shouldn't get a lot of heat for the INT, I watched the clip a few times and it looked he put it in the right spot, but Patrick Surtain is an excellent CB and he made the play, even though it was kind of a "look what I found !!!' pick. The strip sacks are concerning but are correctable.
The defense really needs to come out like a house on fire in the first half, it's getting to be a troubling sign. Maybe Saleh should start accepting the ball instead of deferring to the second half. Getting some ground gains with Breece at the outset could be beneficial to the defense. We'll see I guess. They definitely have to be ready for the Eagles next week.
I agree Mike a W is a W. 400 yards of offense and 31 point (no matter how they were scored) will win games. Penalties hurt drives in red zone. On to Philly game and I will take a win in this game pretty, ugly who cares.
After AR got hurt, I figured the Jets would do either 1-5 or 2-4 at the bye. If they can get a win against Philly, which I would love to see, they would be 3-3. But then reality sets in and the chances of 2-4 seem fairly strong. But we will see what we will see come next week. The defense HAS to do a lot better at the beginning of games, because Philly can put up a lot of points in a short time. I'm not saying they are unbeatable, but you have to be realistic. I want the Jets to be at least competitive in the game, even though a win would be the best thing. They should take the ball if they win the toss and not defer. As I stated in another comment, they need to get going offensively to attempt to send a message to the Eagles right at the outset. Having Hurts just drive down and score in their first possession is not acceptable, but the norm seems to be the Jets' D lags right off the bat, which you cannot do against the Eagles and expect to win coming from behind.
I agree Mike. If for no other reason than trying something different since deferring hasn't exactly been working, they need to take the ball, open up the offense, show some confidence in Zach and tell him to go get a TD. Maybe if the D isn't on the field first, they'll play better, especially if the Jets do score on their opening drive. They haven't been ready to play a single game this season. That's making the Jets look even worse since they were supposed to have this "great" D.
Always like to start my Monday morning with an overreaction, so here goes. I realize it is very early in his career and that he missed most of last season, but that said, I think Breece Hall is the most explosive running back the Jets have ever had. We have had lots of good RBs, and I mean to disrespect to Curtis, Freeman, Bruce H., and the others. It is just that I see something really special in #20. The sky is the limit for this kid and judging from the documentary on his rehab, he has a very good head on his shoulders and seems like a good guy who takes his job very seriously.
I've been a Titan/Jet fan since 1960 and Breece Hall could be the most explosive back the team has had. No disrespect to Curtis Martin, Freeman McNeill or any of the other great backs the Jets have had. The only one I would include in his level is pre-injury Emerson Boozer, who had the same high gear he could call on at a moment's notice. When you see Breece just running away from defenders like he does it's a thing of beauty. On that long TD run, once he got past the d-linemen, no one could catch him to stop him. He definitely has the talent to be the top back in the NFL. If you give him a little crease he has the innate ability to say "thank you very much !" and head for paydirt. He looks like he didn't have an ACL tear.
Well said Mike Z. I too go back to the beginning. I think it is about time for the announcers to drop the "he's not really fast, he's sneaky fast." No, he is really fast. I don't need a 40 time. Film don't lie. He outruns everyone he needs to.
Seems like the Jets running game was all inside the Tackles, no wide zone runs. Broncos run a 3-4, is that the reason ?. Fullback on the field for a large number of plays, just very curious.
I imagine it had something to do with what the coaching staff thought of specific players on the Broncos defense. It's possible that they thought that the Broncos had exceptional dudes manning the edge and were softer inside. It could, also, be possible that they thought that the edges were particularly soft, so they felt good running just inside of them. Either way, there was something they saw in the Broncos front that they wanted to exploit by running between the tackles, and they certainly seemed to have done that. That Breece TD run was a thing of beauty when it came to the blocking. It's your traditional power with Tomlinson second-level-pulling to lead up through the hole and Bawden relegated to mop-up duty since there was literally nobody for him to kick out. Max Mitchell releases up to the inside backer and you had hats on hats all throughout that play. Beautiful.
yeah man! Conklin! The green'n'white Neanderthal!!! (this is a good thing in my book)
how about that play, i think the 4th quarter - Conklin catches the ball, then rumbles downfield with 3, 4 broncos trying to take him down.
That was a Mark Bavaro moment right there; back in the 80's before the Giants started getting good with Parcells, Bavaro had a catch like that, and it took 4 niners and Ronnie Lott to bring him down. He went like 12-15 yards carrying half that team with him LOL.
I didn't get to see the game as CBS/Paramount showed another game. I followed as best I could on NFL.com. It seemed to me that the play calling had gone back to being very predictable and conservative. Thanks all for confirming that, and also for telling me that Zach was under a lot of pressure in the first half. Maybe that's why Hackett went so conservative, but he may just be an idiot.
Bobber, thanks for letting me know that on those 5 trips into the red zone not one pass was thrown into the EZ. That's absurd! I almost hate that the Jets are winning games now, because I think that both Hackett and Saleh need to go at the end of the year, as I don't think we'll ever win anything with those two clowns around. That said, as long as Rodgers is here, Hackett will be, so I guess that we're stuck with Hackett and Saleh.
I was disgusted to once again see that the D was starting the game allowing the opposing team to just march down the field and score. I'm shocked that they actually made an adjustment at halftime and incorporated the spy to keep Wilson from running. Maybe Saleh will pull his head out of his ass, and start doing that more. Thankfully, Ulbrich or he had started blitzing more and that saved the game yesterday with Quincy's strip sack and Hall's return. He also needs to put Sauce on the other team's best WR and let Reed and Sauce play man coverage. I'm sick of this pussy ass zone coverage that just allows reception after reception and teams to march down the field. Saleh needs to grow a pair if he ever hopes to keep his job, much less have a successful Head Coaching career. I've really tried to like him, but more and more I want him gone, and I'm getting more and more pissed at JD for ever hiring that bald-headed dumbass.
I was, luckily, able to find a stream of the game to catch. I've had Sunday Ticket for the last few years and went without, this year, since YouTubeTV decided to double the price. I've been able to catch every game. So far, so good.
I'm a little more positive regarding Saleh. I think he brings a lot of positivity to the team, gets guys to run through walls for him without being a total ass like Rex, and has shown he's learning to manage the game (the missed FG opportunity at the end of the half, aside). I love everything about the guy and I think he'd be a joy to play for. I'm also realistic about the head coach and what he actually does. The head coach doesn't call plays or make the actual adjustments on either side of the ball. It's a bird's eye view that the head coach operates from and I think he's handled it all pretty well. I think the fan consternation about him not giving the general fanbase the answers they want to hear is kind of exhausting and overblown. What the man says to the press matters so little that I often am stunned at how much it is talked about.
Regarding the scheme Ulbrich employs; they've said it before and you'll probably continue to hear it: they don't like to have their corners travel, so they're probably not going to do it very much. The zone coverage, also, is what the majority of NFL teams run a massive majority of the time. Zone coverage is run on something like two thirds of snaps over the last decade. I sometimes think that fan insistence that teams run man coverage belies a slight misunderstanding of that fact. Man coverage isn't nearly as common as "the media" makes it seem. You might cook up a blitz that necessitates man coverage on third downs, but it's something that happens much less than is covered.
Dumbass? Clown? What things that he does are dumb, to you? Are the decisions he makes the kind that you find indefensible? Do you think that there is any possible reason that he's doing it? It's kind of rich, sometimes, when we, as fans, think that we know so much more than the actual coaches who have invested their entire lives to this. I can understand that after a game when you're really into the outcome, your emotions can be pretty high. I might be a bit more accepting of their expertise than most, though. That's been on display in plenty of the posts here.
Anywho; I loved seeing them get a dub and I'm excited to catch that Eagles game. I imagine it'll be another one of these close games where the defense gets into a groove during the middle part of the game and the game will be won on the efficiency of the offense and how conservative they get calling plays for Zach.
As I've shared before, I like Saleh in some ways, and want to like him more, but the buck stops with him. I'm not so certain that Ulbrich and he don't have discussions about the D and how it will be handled with each opponent. and what kind of adjustments will be made, if any. I don't think he knows that much about offense, but I still think it very likely that he has input with Hackett as far as how conservative or how agressive they will be in games. I hope I'm wrong on that, but until I hear conclusive proof to the contrary, I know that in general HCs who were defensive coaches, tend to be very conservative on offense and they think they can win with defense. TOs make them very nervous, especially when their own D doesn't create many TOs. He does seem very positive and likeable, but he also seens woefully out of touch at times, like with how severe injuries are, and he definitely seems to have favorite players and he lets those feelings affect who starts, and who plays. Duane Brown is the prime example of the latter. There's no way he should have been the starting LT when the season began, yet he was. Staying in zone coverage when opposing teams are just marching down the field making it look easy, is out of touch as well imo.
IMO it doesn't matter what they "like" for their scheme. They should be more concerned with what works. In Sauce and Reed, he has two of the best CBs in the NFL and they're both perfectly capable of playing man coverage. IMO it's idiotic to keep them in zone and just let other teams continually march down the field with short passes that are always wide open. It also doesn't matter what the majority of NFL teams do or how long they've been doing it. Schemes should fit the talents of the players one has, not vice versa. The latter is how teams try to fit square pegs into round holes and it rarely if ever works. What's the point of having fast, superbly-talented CBs who excel in coverage and then having them play soft zones???? IMO that's idiotic. It's not putting your players in a position to succeed and best utilize their talents, and it hurts the team. Coaches often stick with what they know and are most comfortable with, rather than changing themselves for the betterment of the team, and that's largely due to their egos. NFL coaches shouldn't be lemmings and have to do what everyone does. They should be capable of thinking for themselves, realizing what their players can do best, and then doing that.
Yes, I think sticking with a zone coverage is indefensible when his D comes out flat every game and lets the opponents just march right down the field and score. Starting Brown was indefensible when he clearly wasn't healthy and had taken few snaps before the season began. Hackett's being so predictable of running on 1st and 2nd downs and then passing on 3rd downs is stupid and indefensible. No QB can succeed with play calling like that. He has moved away from that some, thank heavens, but not enough. In the KC game when they fell behind, the offense became more agressive. They passed more and passed more on 1st downs, and mixed things up better. They had Zach rolling out more and using more play action, the things that he excels at, but as soon as they tied the game, they went back in to a passive, conservative shell, and the play action passes and the rollouts stopped. The Denver game was somewhat a repeat of that.
This is Saleh's 3rd year as HC, and he has yet to outcoach/outsmart an opposing HC. Instead, he has been the one who has usually been outcoached/outsmarted. The Dallas game was a prime example of that. I definitely think there's reasons he does things the way he does. It's because that's what he knows, feels confident in and believes in, but that doesn't fit the talent he has on this D, and it's woefully underachieving. He talks about "All Gas and No Brake" but that's often not the way he coaches, and it's seldom the way that Hackett has the offense playing. He coaches like a lot of elderly women drive, with one foot on the brake.
Yes, we fans can often think we're smarter and at least act like we know more than the actual coaches or GMs, when we don't, but that doesn't mean that we're never right and they're never wrong. Sometimes people that are too close to a situation can't see the forest for the trees. They're too subjective and not objective enough. Their ego also gets involved too much.
Doing things the same way when they're not working and expecting a different outcome is one of the definitions of insanity. If I can understand that the QB has to feel like he has the confidence of the CS, and that there's a way that plays can be called to demonstrate that confidence in the QB, then the OC and HC should be able to, yet they don't seem to grasp that. They also don't seem to grasp that you can't win by coaching scared and playing "not to lose." You can't have players playing paranoid of making mistakes. That results in their making more mistakes. To play their best, players have be relaxed and confident and let their talent take over, but that's not what's happening with the Jets and Zach.
They will NOT win vs the Eagles by being conservative with playcalling. They need to open up the offense, and on D they need to have a spy on Hurts to keep him from running. If Reed plays, imo they also need to let Sauce and Reed play man coverage, otherwise, Philly's WRs and Hurts will kill the Jets. They may score 40 on them. You don't take a creative, agressive, gunslinger-type QB who plays better on the move, and try to turn him into a stationary pocket QB and game manager. You waste his talents and create problems that way for him and for the offense.
Yes, part of my comments were anger and frustration because we easily could have lost that game and the Jets could have won the KC game. They were jobbed/robbed by the refs in both games, but they also had opportunities to win and didn't, in large part because of decisions by the CS, partly because the team is often undisciplined and kills itself with dumb mistakes and shoddy tackling. There is no excuse for that. Saleh evidently doesn't hold players accountable for those things, and that's indefensible imo.
I'm not alone in my thinking and thoughts on Saleh. MANY Jets fans out there are saying very similar, if not identical things. Some are much more critical than I am.
You’re very correct about the conservative play calling that Hackett is, unfortunately, making his habit. It seems to be a balancing act for him and I can understand the quandary they’re looking at. In order for you to trust your quarterback to play well you have to trust your quarterback to play well. It can feel like a trust fall, at times, so I get why a coordinator might coach hesitantly as he’s done. If it becomes a habit and isn’t fixable, then yes, he shouldn’t be the coach. I think to make that decision based on a sample of five games is hubris, however.
Regarding the man vs zone; I’m not saying that just because everybody else does something, it means Robert Saleh or Jeff Ulbrich should do it. I’m getting at a fan misunderstanding of how defenses work and the constraints of the human body on playing a specific defense. Man coverage, as effective as it can be, is monumentally taxing on the players asked to man up. In addition to that added physical burden, it is also an added mental burden, as well. The fact is that most defenses operate in zone most of the time and that isn’t coached pussy footing around or playing scared. They’re protecting their players and putting them in the best position to win games, especially when you consider the long season. You can’t play man the sheer number of snaps that fans often want their teams to play man. It just isn’t feasible.
You’re right that Saleh will discuss and advise his OC and DC on every aspect of their game plan. Good coaches, however, will allow those guys to do their job. I think Saleh does just that while adding whatever extra wisdom or guidance he can provide.
I’m also curious to know what way you think he was actually outcoached recently. I understand the team lost the Cowboys game, for instance, but I’m not sure how your quantifying a guy being “outcoached.” Is it just losing a game? Is it losing a game in a way that makes fans mad? It feels like an arbitrary measuring stick.
Speaking of arbitration hearing sticks; “MANY Jets fans out there are saying very similar, if not identical, this.” Why does this matter? I think we’ve established over and over again that fans usually have no idea what they’re talking about and inject an absurd amount of emotion into what they say about a team or coach.
Again; perhaps there is a bit more to the situation than “MANY Jets fans” are considering.
Regarding Hackett, I could care less about him. I care about the team winning or losing, and I care about Zach. I want him to develop and succeed, but up to this season, the way that the team has handled him as been an abject failure. Briinging in Rodgers and getting rid of MLF was a very good start to correcting the situation, and I think Hackett and Downing have helped some, but now that Zach is having to play every game, Hackett isn't doing him many favors. This is Zach's last chance to prove that he belongs with the Jets. He isn't a game manager-type QB. He is more of a gunslinger and playmaker, and if he has any hope of developing and being the QB they drafted him to be, they need to forget about being conservative and cautious and let him play. He needs to keep working on areas like getting the ball out faster, not staring down WRs, and some of his decisions, but they need to use more rollouts, more play action passes, and more deep throws. They need to show full confidence in him whether they actually have it or not. He still may not develop and be the QB that they want and need him to be, but imo he certainly won't if they keep jerking him around with this cautious, conservative and predictable play calling. It won't help Zach or the team if it takes Hackett all season to realize that he needs to drop the conservative and predictable play calling. I doubt that he ever will. Apples don't fall far from the tree, and his father was very conservative and predictable in his play calling.
One would think that Hackett should have already learned that with Rodgers. Rodgers doesn't play all that cautiously. He audibles out of Hackett's plays frequently. That imo says a lot about the quality of Hackett's play calling. I think Rodgers loves Hackett because he's a good man and funny, and he designs good plays, but also because he allows Rodgers to change the plays. It certainly can't be because of how he calls plays.
I agree that good HC will allow their coordinators to do their jobs up to a point. The question is how long will they give them to realize that they need to make changes and adapt. The season could rapidly go down the tubes, as could Saleh's job if the Jets don't make the playoffs and wind up winning only 6-8 games. Look at Saleh's W-L record. He doesn't have forever to win and get the team to the playoffs. He needs to feel a sense of urgency as does Hackett.
He was outcoached in the Dallas game by McCarthy in two ways. One, McCarthy knew that Saleh doesn't play man coverage and doesn't like his CBs to travel, so he had a game plan to throw a bunch of short passes and just move down the field. Cee Dee Lamb is one of the top WRs in the game. You can't just leave him open play after play and expect to win the game. Saleh and Ulbrich refused to make any adjustments or adapt to what Dallas was doing. They just kept giving them reception after reception. He was also outcoached in that the Dallas D kept 7-8, maybe 9 men in the box at times so the Jets couldn't run the ball. They dared the Jets to beat them throwing deep, and the Jets refused to do that. Again, I understand their reasons for not fully trusting Zach and having confidence in him, but they have no choice. They aren't going to win many games with the way they have been playing offense. They easily could have lost vs Denver in spite of Breece's big game. They lost a game to KC that they quite likely could have won if they had stayed aggressive once they tied the game. Instead, they went into a shell and went conservative. Maybe that was all Hackett, but if so, then Saleh should have told him to stay aggressive and to keep calling play action and rollout passes for Zach. I think Hackett only called one screen pass vs Dallas and never called a draw play. What kind of play calling is that vs a D with a fierce pass rush? I'm not sure they even ran any trap plays.
He's also being outcoached when his team defeats itself with dumb penalties and mental errors and the other team doesn't make those same mistakes. The buck stops with Saleh. He needs to hold players accountable and find a way to make sure that they are disciplined and don't commit those dumb penalties or make mental errors and bad decisions.
It matters because if there is no fanbase, the team won't make as much money and they could even wind up losing money. The Jets deserve to have zero fans show up for games with all their years of incompetent hirings, embarrassing play, and losing. They are very lucky to have such an intense and loyal fanbase. Jets fans are tired of all the losing. Those of us who have paid close attention over the years have learned how each regime has failed, what its mistakes have been, and we can recognize it when new regimes make the same mistakes. Also, fans who have played football and/or been watching for 50 years understand the game. We may not know all the Xs and Os and all the fine nuances, but we understand a heck of a lot more than you seem to give us credit for knowing. We aren't ignorant of how things work, or what works and what doesn't. You're obviously biased in favor of CS since you were a coach. That's understandable You're free to think or feel that what others think is arbitrary. I truly couldn't care less whether you or anyone agrees with my opinions. I know that I'm wrong at times, but when I am, I admit it and I learn, but I also know that I am right at times. I especially believe that I'm right in matters of teaching/coaching, how to handle players, and what it takes to develop talent and for them to succeed, because that's what I've done with my career both in terms of my own singing career and developing my voice students. Operatic singing is an athletic endeavor. We have to understand and develop sound, proper technique, and have to develop our breath control and lung power. There are a lot of parallels between what I do and what football coaches do.
All of what you're saying about Zach and his development is valid and scratching the surface of the ways that the team has mishandled his development. I think some of that is on the staff, some of it is on the specific coordinator, some of it is on the front office, and some of it is on the player. It's a combination, but I don't think that the coaching staff or the front office has, necessarily, bungled anything. They've made some mistakes and attempted adjustments. I think the MLF plan fell apart due to tragedy but I don't think the front office did a good enough job in providing the support around MLF to succeed, in the end. That being said, the front office (Joe Douglas and his folks, essentially) have improved their decision making and continued to build a better system. At this point, they've done a good job of bringing in talent, adjusting the coaching staff from previous mistakes, and continuing to make adjustments to the infrastructure of the team. All in all, I've been very happy rooting for this team since Douglas was hired (save for that Adam Gase fiasco....forcing myself to not intensely dislike Gregg Williams was a chore).
I think that there were more adjustments going on in that Dallas game than the coaching staff was given credit for. It's true that they went with the soft zone on the back and 4 man pressures up front because that is what this team has been and continues to be strongest at. Ulbrich made some adjustments as the game went on (and I'm sure that Saleh was on him to get adjustments as soon as possible; Matt Ryan, in the booth, actually mentioned that Ulbrich is one of the better adjustors in coaching and doesn't necessarily wait until the half to do so).
So, a lot of this is to say that I agree that they need to continue to improve. Where we seem to disagree is I'm a bit more optimistic regarding how the coaching staff and front office is performing. I think this boils down to something that I see in bad teams these days (in college and the pros in all sports). Some of the best teams have coaches who have been around for awhile. I think part of this has to do with those teams finding good coaches and keeping them. There is a bit of a chicken and the egg conundrum here, because if a coach wins right away and stays around for a while, does that mean that he was a good coach from the beginning? It's imprecise, see? Basically, I think that if more teams stuck with a coach and gave them more room to succeed (and fail, technically), they'd find more success. For a team like the Jets, you see a string of 3-4 years and out coaches and front offices. Part of that has to do with reacting to fans clamoring for change, but change isn't always necessary. There tends to be an echo chamber effect with fans and the media that covers a team. You've seen it the last couple of weeks with Zach Wilson. The media and fans rail against Zach Wilson and say he sucks, citing his first two seasons as evidence. When he improves, they continue to cite the evidence and then use the previous clamoring to provide more "evidence" to the cries for change. It tends to be a self-fulfilling prophecy because what will drive the media cycle are "takes" and negativity, so bashing Zach Wilson (or Saleh, or Douglas, or Hackett) turns into good business by the team's media coverage. The more they bash, the more clicks are gotten, resulting in more "evidence" for fans and other media sources to point to to suggest that this player or that coach sucks. At the end of the day, progress is far more incremental and the sample sizes are such that most of the stats folks throw out are devoid of meaning because they're used incorrectly.
All of this is to say that we, as fans, ought to practice a smidge more patience and attempt to drive a more positive coverage of the team. Hopefully, that will result in a more balanced and nuanced picture of how the team is actually playing.
Also, Saleh and Ulbrich didn't "refuse to make adjustments." They made adjustments, and odds are, they just didn't work out as well as we'd all like. All in all, the defense kept them in the game for a big chunk of that game while playing from a position of serious disadvantage given the offense put the defense in horrible field position and kept them on the field. It's true that they couldn't get off the field on third down, but there isn't evidence to support that there weren't adjustments made, let alone a refusal to adjust. Those kind of comments are what drive me to suggest that fans, perhaps, don't understand the game as well as they might think.
As always, I love the discourse and I'm sure the fellas in the discussion love reading full-on novels. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
I agree that the blame for Zach's development and play is spread among the CS, the specific coordinator, the FO and Zach himself.
We'll have to agree to disagree regarding whether the FO has bungled anything. I think the idea of drafting a gunslinging-type QB who played in an offensive scheme in college that may be about as far away from the WCO as an offense can get, against lesser competition, and then expecting him to start day one while learning the WCO, while having to change his footwork, his approach to playing QB (staying in the pocket more, getting the ball out quickly rather than looking to extend plays and create), while learning to read NFL Ds, with a rookie OC who had zero experience calling plays or developing QBs, a rookie QB Coach, a rookie HC, and no quality veteran QB to start and help mentor him, was a colossal bungle of Biblical proportions. I don't know what happened with the Brian Daboll interview, so I won't kill KD for not hiring Daboll. It's entirely possible that JD and Daboll had very differening philosophies or visions for the team or that maybe Daboll wanted too much control or there was a personality conflict between the two, but by all appearances hiring a former defensive coach rather than a very successful OC who has developed several QBs was a bad, bad decision. The NFL is an offensive league. The Jets have hired a slew of former defensive coaches and none have worked out, and they've botched the development of three rookie QBs over the last 10-15 years. If JD paid any attention to recent Jets history, that alone should have told him that he needed to go with an offensive-minded HC who would know how to handle and develop a rookie QB.
After the Rex Ryan and John Idzik errors (intentionally replacing eras) I was ready to walk away from the Jets until JD was hired. JD is what gave me hope in the future for the Jets. He has done a lot of very good things in the draft, FA, trades, and handling the cap, but imo his hiring of Saleh and MLF along with the other factors that I just mentioned was definitely a fireable offense. I've never worked in an NFL FO, but if I know what is needed or best for a rookie QB like Zach, then JD certainly should have, and Greg Knapp was not nearly enough. For certain, I think he would have helped make the situation better, but I don't think that he would have made a huge difference. I'm willing to forgive JD because of the other good that he has done, and because he acknowledged that he had screwed up, but imo he needs to get the OL fixed in 2024. If not, then he has to go. He's had bad luck with the injuries and some of the FA OL not working out or not signing here, but trying and close isn't getting it done.
He has improved his drafting, but I'm not certain about his decision making as he planned to keep Duane Brown as the LT once Orlando Brown opted to sign with the Bengals. I hope that he will be able to get the OL fixed.
Douglas didn't hire Gase. Actually, Gase was instrumental in getting Douglas hired. For that, I'll be forever grateful to Gase. For once a stupid decision by the Jets' owner actually wound up helping the team.
There may have been some adjustments happening in the Dallas game, but not the crucial ones of playing press coverage and having Sauce and Reed play man coverage, and imo that's what was needed. I hope that Matty Ryan is right about Ulrich and that we will see more necessary adjustments.
In general, I agree with the idea of patience and I agree with that regarding Zach. The problem is that most Jets fans have little or no patience because of all the incompetence shown by the owners over the years, the horrible hires, the lousy drafts, and all the losing. I've been willing to give Saleh, the CS, JD and all patience, but there are limits. This season was hyped up as a SB season, and we were "supposed" to have an elite D, and it's been anything but elite through 5 games. As I also mentioned Zach's time is running out, if not with the GM and CS then it is with the media and fanbase. I have actually seen Jets fans talk about booing Zach at games. He doesn't deserve that, and I'd rather see him traded to another team where he'll be appreciated than continue to see Jets fans trashing him, saying he sucks, etc.
I've been preaching patience here and elsewhere regarding Zach and the team, but it basically is falling on deaf ears. Many Jets fans' minds are already made up that Zach will never be a starting caliber QB in the NFL.
It's one thing to try adjustments, but the need to work. If not, then bigger, more drastic adjustments need to be made, and I haven't seen those yet. I did see some adjustments in the Denver game and that gives me some hope for Ulbrich and the D.
I'm shocked that it has taken the Jets this long to "trust" Huff. IMO he was never bad vs the run. I watched a lot of video of him in college, and he was good against the run in college, and he seemed to make quite a few plays vs the run his rookie season, and then the Jets decided that he couldn't stop the run for some reason. They'd better find a way to keep him. He is a stud.
I'm disappointed in Lawson's play. He looks like Tarzan, but is playing more like Jane. The Jets may try to trade him, but I doubt that they'll get much if anything for him. I liked the move when the Jets signed him, and he looked awesome in TC that year until he tore his achilles. He just hasn't been the same player.
I had thought that McDonald would make more of an impact this year, but he's been pretty invisible. I guess that he needs to get stronger and a little bigger.
I was glad to see that Woods was active, and he got the safety yesterday. Q seemingly was invisible. Is that accurate? He hasn't had a very good start to the season. I hope his getting paid isn't causing him to coast. Thankfully, Jefferson is making some plays.
I can't believe that AVT got hurt again in Denver. Please don't be his Achilles!!!! How did Mitchell look when he replaced AVT? Did Becton get hurt too? I read somewhere that before the end of the 1st half both starting OTs were not on the field and that's why the Jets didn't try to score.
Mitchell looked like you would expect. He sometimes looked like a baby deer (hyper athletic for an o-lineman but sometimes falls down). He plays a bit different style from AVT, so if they were to need to rely on him, they'd probably opt for a slightly different menu of plays. He was getting to the second level really quickly and sticking. That was positive. The whole offensive line will need to fix some communication issues this week.
Quinnen; he was, actually, getting mugged nearly every play. He was often putting serious pressure on Wilson even though he wasn't necessarily shedding his man and getting home. He's, often, not particularly blockable in the sense that guards can't control where he goes. He gets where he wants but isn't always able to covert it into a sack, which isn't necessarily concerning, especially if they're trying to get certain guys free. They were running a bunch of stunts, so I bet they thought that they could get some dudes free and confuse the Bronco's offensive line.
You're right that they need to keep getting Huff snaps, and I think that is happening naturally. He's, seemingly, taken Carl Lawson's role and they're starting to give him more reps in place of JFM (sometimes, simply, moving JFM inside to replace Jefferson, Thomas, or Woods). I think you're starting to see certain combinations of linemen develop. I saw Thomas out there with Woods a bunch. Jefferson was out there with Quinnen a lot.
I wrote this last night. I wanted to rant before reading David’s synopsis of the game.
Not trying to be a Debbie Downer but for the Jets to have any shot at the playoffs, they need to fix a few things.
It seems as if the Jets are playing two different defenses every game.
To win in this league, you can’t open up every game by letting teams score and go up and down the field in the first half.
I understand adjustments are made half time but you would think after 4 games the Jets would be better prepared for screens and quick passes that their opponents are using to slow the pass rush.
The Paul Hackett offense was back in the red zone yesterday. How can a team be in the red zone 5 times and never attempt one pass into the endzone. That is offensive malpractice. Denver going into the game had the 31st worst pass defense and the 32 worst run defense. Unfortunately as good as Breece Hall was yesterday, you can’t expect him to break one every play.
The distances on 4 of Zuerlein’s fgs were 30, 26,27 and 22 yards not exactly moon shots. You don’t win championships playing for fgs.
On Denver first sack, #52, hit Zach’s helmet and racked his hand over Zach’s face mask. The Jets have not been the recipient of a quarterback roughing call since 11/28/21, going on two years. Russell Wilson was a recipient of a roughing call today by the Jets. His looked like a love tap compared to Zach’s. It seems the roughing calls are made at the most inappropriate time of the game for the Jets. Sort of like a 12th man.
It’s getting to the point, that teams can mug Jermaine Johnson without any fear of retribution from the refs.
Someone in the Jet organization has to publicly address the roughing issue and the holding issue, it’s a joke it’s so noticeable.
Lastly, usually when you constantly hear an offensive linemen or a defensive backs name during a telecast, it means that they are getting beaten by their opponent. You never hear heard Bryce Hall’s name until he was caught holding on the two point conversion and then when he recovered the fumble. Evidently, the Broncos never attacked him or if they did, they were unsuccessful in trying.
Kudos to him to go from starter to benchwarmer to game winner.
As football fans, we have heard over the years about what a great coach, and offensive genius Sean Payton is. My question about him, “ When has he ever won anything without Drew Brees as his starting quarterback.
Great post, Bobber. Spot on. Woody needs to grow a pair and raise hell with the Commissioner and with the head of officials. If need be, he needs to threaten to publicly trash them and accuse them of fixing games, and inform them that he will pay any fines levied. One way or another, the BS bad calls and non-calls on roughing the passer (Zach) and holding JJ must stop! If it doesn't, maybe Woody needs to hire some NJ muscle to pay the Commissioner and Head of Officiating a "visit."
We beat a 1-3 team in a very sloppy ugly game. The defense made some adjustments in the second half that made the difference. Red Zone offense was horrendous, penalties in the Red Zone killed us. Special Teams, Zuerlein 5 for 5, Morested averaged 52 yards on 3 punts and then their is the Wolf. I was a big supporter of Bryce Hall for a long time, but he didn’t have a good summer, buried deep on the depth , I wanted him gone, very surprised that he made the 53, once again I was so wrong. Bryce was strong in coverage, was a consistent tackler, and scooped that ball up like a shortstop to put the game away ( that never happens). The Jets Defensive Line Rotation worked well in the Mile High City without Lawson, that front four was outstanding in the Fourth Quarter. Quincy on the Blitz is orgasmic , Offensive Coordinators burning the midnight oil trying to adjust to the Williams Brothers.. Jets need to get better, Zack needs to get a little more consistent, but he got more passing yards than the other Wilson, and I thought he ran the ball well. Nice to see Conklin and Hall flourishing. In petty news, Bill Belichek and Sean Payton are 1-4, couldn’t happen to nicer guys, let the dumpster fires continue.
I wish just once that Saleh would listen or talk to the SNY crew. Bart Scott, Willie Colon, & Connor Rogers could provide him and the O and D coordinators some good advice. The defense does not come out attacking - for some reason they wait till they get behind. The play calling was a atrocious - they dont trust the QB or just plain conservative. Zack Wilson is not a starting NFL QB. One would think he would have been somewhat better then the previous week and he wasnt. If they need him to win a game for you there is no way he is capable of doing that. However, with all this said - They somehow won a game against a crappy team and good for Hack. I wish we could beat the Eagles just ONCE - they woukd be 3-3 and prob not much better if Rogers played.
Totally agree with u on about everything. Zach had 2 fumbles, lucky we got them back and botched getting 3 points before halftime. Very fortunate to have Breece. He saved the day. Still bad play calling though. I remember reading something somewhere how Paul Hackett was a great play caller. I have been a Jet fan for quite awhile and as my memory serves me (without specifics) that he was a horrid and conservative play caller. Like father like son. No way we beat Philly playing like this. Defense will have to come out much stronger at the beginning as well.
Right Phil, I remember walking out of the old Giants stadium screaming and curing as was thousands of other Jets fans about Paul Hacketts play calling. How anyone can label him a great play caller is beyond me. Good that Nate got osme sort of revenge but gees
I just remembered that supposedly he was very close to Joe Montana. I guess if u attach urself to a legend like Nathaniel with Aaron anything is possible :)
LOL so true
Don't you love a safety !!!
hey Everybody!!!
it's sooo much more fun when our guys win, idn't it???!!!
below, a lovely short vid capture; after the final whistle sounded, when the coaches shake hands at midfield.
Check what Coach Saleh sez to the PayHole ---
https://twitter.com/i/status/1711209325312545043
'nuff said -
CGVet58
CG,
I was wondering where your post was. Thanks for the link. That was a classy way to say "eff you" to Payhole. That's good, but imo evidently the flip side of that is that neither Saleh, nor Hackett used payback as a means of motivation for this game, or if so, they are lousy motivators, or the Jets just don't care. They should have been fiery and all over Denver on both offense and defense from the get-go, but they obviously weren't. I'm sure that Payhole tried to make Hackett look bad, and it looked like Denver may have been more motivated than the Jets were.
I know you have to be happy with Quincy's strip sack to win the game! You called it. Kudos to you!
Yesssiiirrr!! Quincy - PRO BOWL.
The "Fire-and-Forget" Missile - I'm lovin' that Brich is using him more to augment the enormous pressure generated by our front four.
One thing I loved about this game; everyone could see how - by the middle of the 3rd quarter - our passrush with the keep-it-fresh stable of capable linemen, was just wearing down the Denver pass protection. Just effin' Love It!
Next Week, Eagles - Hackett better be scheming up pass-run-run, and play-action, and keeping a skill player back to help with the pass protection -- and also Dress HARDMAN UP! and More Ruckert, less Uzomah... and more Gipson on the offense... and try running some screens, too...
and most of all - Quick Release plays for Wilson - there was a point in the game where some one showed a stat for zach, for passes thrown 2.5 seconds or faster, and for passes taking more time for him.
In that graphic, Zach was 8 for 8; and with the longer passes, he was 2 for 5.
Now, not for nothing, but I still see Zach just not looking off the DB's. I'm going to see if i can get my hands on an all-22, get a closer look.
But yeah, a great win - and PayHole gets to be told by our coach to "stay humble" - Love It!
Yes, sir! More of those early passes with quick reads to get Zach's confidence going!! He looked excellent when he was hitting the top of his drop and firing to his first read. He even had a few nice progressions late. His strike to Conklin sticks out. Conklin, also, needs to get the ball a bit more, if only because I love seeing that unfrozen caveman truck suckas!
I'm in Florida on vacation, so I didn't see the game, but a win is a win is a win. I have on DVR and will watch it when I get home. After such success last week against KC, I don't understand why Hackett got so conservative, especially in the red zone. But his coaching bloodline is Paul Hackett, so no one should be surprised. Zack shouldn't get a lot of heat for the INT, I watched the clip a few times and it looked he put it in the right spot, but Patrick Surtain is an excellent CB and he made the play, even though it was kind of a "look what I found !!!' pick. The strip sacks are concerning but are correctable.
The defense really needs to come out like a house on fire in the first half, it's getting to be a troubling sign. Maybe Saleh should start accepting the ball instead of deferring to the second half. Getting some ground gains with Breece at the outset could be beneficial to the defense. We'll see I guess. They definitely have to be ready for the Eagles next week.
I agree Mike a W is a W. 400 yards of offense and 31 point (no matter how they were scored) will win games. Penalties hurt drives in red zone. On to Philly game and I will take a win in this game pretty, ugly who cares.
After AR got hurt, I figured the Jets would do either 1-5 or 2-4 at the bye. If they can get a win against Philly, which I would love to see, they would be 3-3. But then reality sets in and the chances of 2-4 seem fairly strong. But we will see what we will see come next week. The defense HAS to do a lot better at the beginning of games, because Philly can put up a lot of points in a short time. I'm not saying they are unbeatable, but you have to be realistic. I want the Jets to be at least competitive in the game, even though a win would be the best thing. They should take the ball if they win the toss and not defer. As I stated in another comment, they need to get going offensively to attempt to send a message to the Eagles right at the outset. Having Hurts just drive down and score in their first possession is not acceptable, but the norm seems to be the Jets' D lags right off the bat, which you cannot do against the Eagles and expect to win coming from behind.
I agree Mike. If for no other reason than trying something different since deferring hasn't exactly been working, they need to take the ball, open up the offense, show some confidence in Zach and tell him to go get a TD. Maybe if the D isn't on the field first, they'll play better, especially if the Jets do score on their opening drive. They haven't been ready to play a single game this season. That's making the Jets look even worse since they were supposed to have this "great" D.
They have to try something, especially now that AVT is done for the year. That's a big problem.
Always like to start my Monday morning with an overreaction, so here goes. I realize it is very early in his career and that he missed most of last season, but that said, I think Breece Hall is the most explosive running back the Jets have ever had. We have had lots of good RBs, and I mean to disrespect to Curtis, Freeman, Bruce H., and the others. It is just that I see something really special in #20. The sky is the limit for this kid and judging from the documentary on his rehab, he has a very good head on his shoulders and seems like a good guy who takes his job very seriously.
I've been a Titan/Jet fan since 1960 and Breece Hall could be the most explosive back the team has had. No disrespect to Curtis Martin, Freeman McNeill or any of the other great backs the Jets have had. The only one I would include in his level is pre-injury Emerson Boozer, who had the same high gear he could call on at a moment's notice. When you see Breece just running away from defenders like he does it's a thing of beauty. On that long TD run, once he got past the d-linemen, no one could catch him to stop him. He definitely has the talent to be the top back in the NFL. If you give him a little crease he has the innate ability to say "thank you very much !" and head for paydirt. He looks like he didn't have an ACL tear.
Well said Mike Z. I too go back to the beginning. I think it is about time for the announcers to drop the "he's not really fast, he's sneaky fast." No, he is really fast. I don't need a 40 time. Film don't lie. He outruns everyone he needs to.
Seems like the Jets running game was all inside the Tackles, no wide zone runs. Broncos run a 3-4, is that the reason ?. Fullback on the field for a large number of plays, just very curious.
I imagine it had something to do with what the coaching staff thought of specific players on the Broncos defense. It's possible that they thought that the Broncos had exceptional dudes manning the edge and were softer inside. It could, also, be possible that they thought that the edges were particularly soft, so they felt good running just inside of them. Either way, there was something they saw in the Broncos front that they wanted to exploit by running between the tackles, and they certainly seemed to have done that. That Breece TD run was a thing of beauty when it came to the blocking. It's your traditional power with Tomlinson second-level-pulling to lead up through the hole and Bawden relegated to mop-up duty since there was literally nobody for him to kick out. Max Mitchell releases up to the inside backer and you had hats on hats all throughout that play. Beautiful.
yeah man! Conklin! The green'n'white Neanderthal!!! (this is a good thing in my book)
how about that play, i think the 4th quarter - Conklin catches the ball, then rumbles downfield with 3, 4 broncos trying to take him down.
That was a Mark Bavaro moment right there; back in the 80's before the Giants started getting good with Parcells, Bavaro had a catch like that, and it took 4 niners and Ronnie Lott to bring him down. He went like 12-15 yards carrying half that team with him LOL.
I didn't get to see the game as CBS/Paramount showed another game. I followed as best I could on NFL.com. It seemed to me that the play calling had gone back to being very predictable and conservative. Thanks all for confirming that, and also for telling me that Zach was under a lot of pressure in the first half. Maybe that's why Hackett went so conservative, but he may just be an idiot.
Bobber, thanks for letting me know that on those 5 trips into the red zone not one pass was thrown into the EZ. That's absurd! I almost hate that the Jets are winning games now, because I think that both Hackett and Saleh need to go at the end of the year, as I don't think we'll ever win anything with those two clowns around. That said, as long as Rodgers is here, Hackett will be, so I guess that we're stuck with Hackett and Saleh.
I was disgusted to once again see that the D was starting the game allowing the opposing team to just march down the field and score. I'm shocked that they actually made an adjustment at halftime and incorporated the spy to keep Wilson from running. Maybe Saleh will pull his head out of his ass, and start doing that more. Thankfully, Ulbrich or he had started blitzing more and that saved the game yesterday with Quincy's strip sack and Hall's return. He also needs to put Sauce on the other team's best WR and let Reed and Sauce play man coverage. I'm sick of this pussy ass zone coverage that just allows reception after reception and teams to march down the field. Saleh needs to grow a pair if he ever hopes to keep his job, much less have a successful Head Coaching career. I've really tried to like him, but more and more I want him gone, and I'm getting more and more pissed at JD for ever hiring that bald-headed dumbass.
hey Craig, and all TJW Bruddahs -
https://www.nflbite.com
streams every NFL game, in full HD 1920 stuff. Streaming is Legal! But you can't download it from nflbite.
I have other sites I can download the games/save to my HD ;-)
2
I was, luckily, able to find a stream of the game to catch. I've had Sunday Ticket for the last few years and went without, this year, since YouTubeTV decided to double the price. I've been able to catch every game. So far, so good.
I'm a little more positive regarding Saleh. I think he brings a lot of positivity to the team, gets guys to run through walls for him without being a total ass like Rex, and has shown he's learning to manage the game (the missed FG opportunity at the end of the half, aside). I love everything about the guy and I think he'd be a joy to play for. I'm also realistic about the head coach and what he actually does. The head coach doesn't call plays or make the actual adjustments on either side of the ball. It's a bird's eye view that the head coach operates from and I think he's handled it all pretty well. I think the fan consternation about him not giving the general fanbase the answers they want to hear is kind of exhausting and overblown. What the man says to the press matters so little that I often am stunned at how much it is talked about.
Regarding the scheme Ulbrich employs; they've said it before and you'll probably continue to hear it: they don't like to have their corners travel, so they're probably not going to do it very much. The zone coverage, also, is what the majority of NFL teams run a massive majority of the time. Zone coverage is run on something like two thirds of snaps over the last decade. I sometimes think that fan insistence that teams run man coverage belies a slight misunderstanding of that fact. Man coverage isn't nearly as common as "the media" makes it seem. You might cook up a blitz that necessitates man coverage on third downs, but it's something that happens much less than is covered.
Dumbass? Clown? What things that he does are dumb, to you? Are the decisions he makes the kind that you find indefensible? Do you think that there is any possible reason that he's doing it? It's kind of rich, sometimes, when we, as fans, think that we know so much more than the actual coaches who have invested their entire lives to this. I can understand that after a game when you're really into the outcome, your emotions can be pretty high. I might be a bit more accepting of their expertise than most, though. That's been on display in plenty of the posts here.
Anywho; I loved seeing them get a dub and I'm excited to catch that Eagles game. I imagine it'll be another one of these close games where the defense gets into a groove during the middle part of the game and the game will be won on the efficiency of the offense and how conservative they get calling plays for Zach.
Daniel,
As I've shared before, I like Saleh in some ways, and want to like him more, but the buck stops with him. I'm not so certain that Ulbrich and he don't have discussions about the D and how it will be handled with each opponent. and what kind of adjustments will be made, if any. I don't think he knows that much about offense, but I still think it very likely that he has input with Hackett as far as how conservative or how agressive they will be in games. I hope I'm wrong on that, but until I hear conclusive proof to the contrary, I know that in general HCs who were defensive coaches, tend to be very conservative on offense and they think they can win with defense. TOs make them very nervous, especially when their own D doesn't create many TOs. He does seem very positive and likeable, but he also seens woefully out of touch at times, like with how severe injuries are, and he definitely seems to have favorite players and he lets those feelings affect who starts, and who plays. Duane Brown is the prime example of the latter. There's no way he should have been the starting LT when the season began, yet he was. Staying in zone coverage when opposing teams are just marching down the field making it look easy, is out of touch as well imo.
IMO it doesn't matter what they "like" for their scheme. They should be more concerned with what works. In Sauce and Reed, he has two of the best CBs in the NFL and they're both perfectly capable of playing man coverage. IMO it's idiotic to keep them in zone and just let other teams continually march down the field with short passes that are always wide open. It also doesn't matter what the majority of NFL teams do or how long they've been doing it. Schemes should fit the talents of the players one has, not vice versa. The latter is how teams try to fit square pegs into round holes and it rarely if ever works. What's the point of having fast, superbly-talented CBs who excel in coverage and then having them play soft zones???? IMO that's idiotic. It's not putting your players in a position to succeed and best utilize their talents, and it hurts the team. Coaches often stick with what they know and are most comfortable with, rather than changing themselves for the betterment of the team, and that's largely due to their egos. NFL coaches shouldn't be lemmings and have to do what everyone does. They should be capable of thinking for themselves, realizing what their players can do best, and then doing that.
Yes, I think sticking with a zone coverage is indefensible when his D comes out flat every game and lets the opponents just march right down the field and score. Starting Brown was indefensible when he clearly wasn't healthy and had taken few snaps before the season began. Hackett's being so predictable of running on 1st and 2nd downs and then passing on 3rd downs is stupid and indefensible. No QB can succeed with play calling like that. He has moved away from that some, thank heavens, but not enough. In the KC game when they fell behind, the offense became more agressive. They passed more and passed more on 1st downs, and mixed things up better. They had Zach rolling out more and using more play action, the things that he excels at, but as soon as they tied the game, they went back in to a passive, conservative shell, and the play action passes and the rollouts stopped. The Denver game was somewhat a repeat of that.
This is Saleh's 3rd year as HC, and he has yet to outcoach/outsmart an opposing HC. Instead, he has been the one who has usually been outcoached/outsmarted. The Dallas game was a prime example of that. I definitely think there's reasons he does things the way he does. It's because that's what he knows, feels confident in and believes in, but that doesn't fit the talent he has on this D, and it's woefully underachieving. He talks about "All Gas and No Brake" but that's often not the way he coaches, and it's seldom the way that Hackett has the offense playing. He coaches like a lot of elderly women drive, with one foot on the brake.
Yes, we fans can often think we're smarter and at least act like we know more than the actual coaches or GMs, when we don't, but that doesn't mean that we're never right and they're never wrong. Sometimes people that are too close to a situation can't see the forest for the trees. They're too subjective and not objective enough. Their ego also gets involved too much.
Doing things the same way when they're not working and expecting a different outcome is one of the definitions of insanity. If I can understand that the QB has to feel like he has the confidence of the CS, and that there's a way that plays can be called to demonstrate that confidence in the QB, then the OC and HC should be able to, yet they don't seem to grasp that. They also don't seem to grasp that you can't win by coaching scared and playing "not to lose." You can't have players playing paranoid of making mistakes. That results in their making more mistakes. To play their best, players have be relaxed and confident and let their talent take over, but that's not what's happening with the Jets and Zach.
They will NOT win vs the Eagles by being conservative with playcalling. They need to open up the offense, and on D they need to have a spy on Hurts to keep him from running. If Reed plays, imo they also need to let Sauce and Reed play man coverage, otherwise, Philly's WRs and Hurts will kill the Jets. They may score 40 on them. You don't take a creative, agressive, gunslinger-type QB who plays better on the move, and try to turn him into a stationary pocket QB and game manager. You waste his talents and create problems that way for him and for the offense.
Yes, part of my comments were anger and frustration because we easily could have lost that game and the Jets could have won the KC game. They were jobbed/robbed by the refs in both games, but they also had opportunities to win and didn't, in large part because of decisions by the CS, partly because the team is often undisciplined and kills itself with dumb mistakes and shoddy tackling. There is no excuse for that. Saleh evidently doesn't hold players accountable for those things, and that's indefensible imo.
I'm not alone in my thinking and thoughts on Saleh. MANY Jets fans out there are saying very similar, if not identical things. Some are much more critical than I am.
You’re very correct about the conservative play calling that Hackett is, unfortunately, making his habit. It seems to be a balancing act for him and I can understand the quandary they’re looking at. In order for you to trust your quarterback to play well you have to trust your quarterback to play well. It can feel like a trust fall, at times, so I get why a coordinator might coach hesitantly as he’s done. If it becomes a habit and isn’t fixable, then yes, he shouldn’t be the coach. I think to make that decision based on a sample of five games is hubris, however.
Regarding the man vs zone; I’m not saying that just because everybody else does something, it means Robert Saleh or Jeff Ulbrich should do it. I’m getting at a fan misunderstanding of how defenses work and the constraints of the human body on playing a specific defense. Man coverage, as effective as it can be, is monumentally taxing on the players asked to man up. In addition to that added physical burden, it is also an added mental burden, as well. The fact is that most defenses operate in zone most of the time and that isn’t coached pussy footing around or playing scared. They’re protecting their players and putting them in the best position to win games, especially when you consider the long season. You can’t play man the sheer number of snaps that fans often want their teams to play man. It just isn’t feasible.
You’re right that Saleh will discuss and advise his OC and DC on every aspect of their game plan. Good coaches, however, will allow those guys to do their job. I think Saleh does just that while adding whatever extra wisdom or guidance he can provide.
I’m also curious to know what way you think he was actually outcoached recently. I understand the team lost the Cowboys game, for instance, but I’m not sure how your quantifying a guy being “outcoached.” Is it just losing a game? Is it losing a game in a way that makes fans mad? It feels like an arbitrary measuring stick.
Speaking of arbitration hearing sticks; “MANY Jets fans out there are saying very similar, if not identical, this.” Why does this matter? I think we’ve established over and over again that fans usually have no idea what they’re talking about and inject an absurd amount of emotion into what they say about a team or coach.
Again; perhaps there is a bit more to the situation than “MANY Jets fans” are considering.
Perhaps
Regarding Hackett, I could care less about him. I care about the team winning or losing, and I care about Zach. I want him to develop and succeed, but up to this season, the way that the team has handled him as been an abject failure. Briinging in Rodgers and getting rid of MLF was a very good start to correcting the situation, and I think Hackett and Downing have helped some, but now that Zach is having to play every game, Hackett isn't doing him many favors. This is Zach's last chance to prove that he belongs with the Jets. He isn't a game manager-type QB. He is more of a gunslinger and playmaker, and if he has any hope of developing and being the QB they drafted him to be, they need to forget about being conservative and cautious and let him play. He needs to keep working on areas like getting the ball out faster, not staring down WRs, and some of his decisions, but they need to use more rollouts, more play action passes, and more deep throws. They need to show full confidence in him whether they actually have it or not. He still may not develop and be the QB that they want and need him to be, but imo he certainly won't if they keep jerking him around with this cautious, conservative and predictable play calling. It won't help Zach or the team if it takes Hackett all season to realize that he needs to drop the conservative and predictable play calling. I doubt that he ever will. Apples don't fall far from the tree, and his father was very conservative and predictable in his play calling.
One would think that Hackett should have already learned that with Rodgers. Rodgers doesn't play all that cautiously. He audibles out of Hackett's plays frequently. That imo says a lot about the quality of Hackett's play calling. I think Rodgers loves Hackett because he's a good man and funny, and he designs good plays, but also because he allows Rodgers to change the plays. It certainly can't be because of how he calls plays.
I agree that good HC will allow their coordinators to do their jobs up to a point. The question is how long will they give them to realize that they need to make changes and adapt. The season could rapidly go down the tubes, as could Saleh's job if the Jets don't make the playoffs and wind up winning only 6-8 games. Look at Saleh's W-L record. He doesn't have forever to win and get the team to the playoffs. He needs to feel a sense of urgency as does Hackett.
He was outcoached in the Dallas game by McCarthy in two ways. One, McCarthy knew that Saleh doesn't play man coverage and doesn't like his CBs to travel, so he had a game plan to throw a bunch of short passes and just move down the field. Cee Dee Lamb is one of the top WRs in the game. You can't just leave him open play after play and expect to win the game. Saleh and Ulbrich refused to make any adjustments or adapt to what Dallas was doing. They just kept giving them reception after reception. He was also outcoached in that the Dallas D kept 7-8, maybe 9 men in the box at times so the Jets couldn't run the ball. They dared the Jets to beat them throwing deep, and the Jets refused to do that. Again, I understand their reasons for not fully trusting Zach and having confidence in him, but they have no choice. They aren't going to win many games with the way they have been playing offense. They easily could have lost vs Denver in spite of Breece's big game. They lost a game to KC that they quite likely could have won if they had stayed aggressive once they tied the game. Instead, they went into a shell and went conservative. Maybe that was all Hackett, but if so, then Saleh should have told him to stay aggressive and to keep calling play action and rollout passes for Zach. I think Hackett only called one screen pass vs Dallas and never called a draw play. What kind of play calling is that vs a D with a fierce pass rush? I'm not sure they even ran any trap plays.
He's also being outcoached when his team defeats itself with dumb penalties and mental errors and the other team doesn't make those same mistakes. The buck stops with Saleh. He needs to hold players accountable and find a way to make sure that they are disciplined and don't commit those dumb penalties or make mental errors and bad decisions.
It matters because if there is no fanbase, the team won't make as much money and they could even wind up losing money. The Jets deserve to have zero fans show up for games with all their years of incompetent hirings, embarrassing play, and losing. They are very lucky to have such an intense and loyal fanbase. Jets fans are tired of all the losing. Those of us who have paid close attention over the years have learned how each regime has failed, what its mistakes have been, and we can recognize it when new regimes make the same mistakes. Also, fans who have played football and/or been watching for 50 years understand the game. We may not know all the Xs and Os and all the fine nuances, but we understand a heck of a lot more than you seem to give us credit for knowing. We aren't ignorant of how things work, or what works and what doesn't. You're obviously biased in favor of CS since you were a coach. That's understandable You're free to think or feel that what others think is arbitrary. I truly couldn't care less whether you or anyone agrees with my opinions. I know that I'm wrong at times, but when I am, I admit it and I learn, but I also know that I am right at times. I especially believe that I'm right in matters of teaching/coaching, how to handle players, and what it takes to develop talent and for them to succeed, because that's what I've done with my career both in terms of my own singing career and developing my voice students. Operatic singing is an athletic endeavor. We have to understand and develop sound, proper technique, and have to develop our breath control and lung power. There are a lot of parallels between what I do and what football coaches do.
All of what you're saying about Zach and his development is valid and scratching the surface of the ways that the team has mishandled his development. I think some of that is on the staff, some of it is on the specific coordinator, some of it is on the front office, and some of it is on the player. It's a combination, but I don't think that the coaching staff or the front office has, necessarily, bungled anything. They've made some mistakes and attempted adjustments. I think the MLF plan fell apart due to tragedy but I don't think the front office did a good enough job in providing the support around MLF to succeed, in the end. That being said, the front office (Joe Douglas and his folks, essentially) have improved their decision making and continued to build a better system. At this point, they've done a good job of bringing in talent, adjusting the coaching staff from previous mistakes, and continuing to make adjustments to the infrastructure of the team. All in all, I've been very happy rooting for this team since Douglas was hired (save for that Adam Gase fiasco....forcing myself to not intensely dislike Gregg Williams was a chore).
I think that there were more adjustments going on in that Dallas game than the coaching staff was given credit for. It's true that they went with the soft zone on the back and 4 man pressures up front because that is what this team has been and continues to be strongest at. Ulbrich made some adjustments as the game went on (and I'm sure that Saleh was on him to get adjustments as soon as possible; Matt Ryan, in the booth, actually mentioned that Ulbrich is one of the better adjustors in coaching and doesn't necessarily wait until the half to do so).
So, a lot of this is to say that I agree that they need to continue to improve. Where we seem to disagree is I'm a bit more optimistic regarding how the coaching staff and front office is performing. I think this boils down to something that I see in bad teams these days (in college and the pros in all sports). Some of the best teams have coaches who have been around for awhile. I think part of this has to do with those teams finding good coaches and keeping them. There is a bit of a chicken and the egg conundrum here, because if a coach wins right away and stays around for a while, does that mean that he was a good coach from the beginning? It's imprecise, see? Basically, I think that if more teams stuck with a coach and gave them more room to succeed (and fail, technically), they'd find more success. For a team like the Jets, you see a string of 3-4 years and out coaches and front offices. Part of that has to do with reacting to fans clamoring for change, but change isn't always necessary. There tends to be an echo chamber effect with fans and the media that covers a team. You've seen it the last couple of weeks with Zach Wilson. The media and fans rail against Zach Wilson and say he sucks, citing his first two seasons as evidence. When he improves, they continue to cite the evidence and then use the previous clamoring to provide more "evidence" to the cries for change. It tends to be a self-fulfilling prophecy because what will drive the media cycle are "takes" and negativity, so bashing Zach Wilson (or Saleh, or Douglas, or Hackett) turns into good business by the team's media coverage. The more they bash, the more clicks are gotten, resulting in more "evidence" for fans and other media sources to point to to suggest that this player or that coach sucks. At the end of the day, progress is far more incremental and the sample sizes are such that most of the stats folks throw out are devoid of meaning because they're used incorrectly.
All of this is to say that we, as fans, ought to practice a smidge more patience and attempt to drive a more positive coverage of the team. Hopefully, that will result in a more balanced and nuanced picture of how the team is actually playing.
Also, Saleh and Ulbrich didn't "refuse to make adjustments." They made adjustments, and odds are, they just didn't work out as well as we'd all like. All in all, the defense kept them in the game for a big chunk of that game while playing from a position of serious disadvantage given the offense put the defense in horrible field position and kept them on the field. It's true that they couldn't get off the field on third down, but there isn't evidence to support that there weren't adjustments made, let alone a refusal to adjust. Those kind of comments are what drive me to suggest that fans, perhaps, don't understand the game as well as they might think.
As always, I love the discourse and I'm sure the fellas in the discussion love reading full-on novels. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Thanks for your thoughtful response.
I agree that the blame for Zach's development and play is spread among the CS, the specific coordinator, the FO and Zach himself.
We'll have to agree to disagree regarding whether the FO has bungled anything. I think the idea of drafting a gunslinging-type QB who played in an offensive scheme in college that may be about as far away from the WCO as an offense can get, against lesser competition, and then expecting him to start day one while learning the WCO, while having to change his footwork, his approach to playing QB (staying in the pocket more, getting the ball out quickly rather than looking to extend plays and create), while learning to read NFL Ds, with a rookie OC who had zero experience calling plays or developing QBs, a rookie QB Coach, a rookie HC, and no quality veteran QB to start and help mentor him, was a colossal bungle of Biblical proportions. I don't know what happened with the Brian Daboll interview, so I won't kill KD for not hiring Daboll. It's entirely possible that JD and Daboll had very differening philosophies or visions for the team or that maybe Daboll wanted too much control or there was a personality conflict between the two, but by all appearances hiring a former defensive coach rather than a very successful OC who has developed several QBs was a bad, bad decision. The NFL is an offensive league. The Jets have hired a slew of former defensive coaches and none have worked out, and they've botched the development of three rookie QBs over the last 10-15 years. If JD paid any attention to recent Jets history, that alone should have told him that he needed to go with an offensive-minded HC who would know how to handle and develop a rookie QB.
After the Rex Ryan and John Idzik errors (intentionally replacing eras) I was ready to walk away from the Jets until JD was hired. JD is what gave me hope in the future for the Jets. He has done a lot of very good things in the draft, FA, trades, and handling the cap, but imo his hiring of Saleh and MLF along with the other factors that I just mentioned was definitely a fireable offense. I've never worked in an NFL FO, but if I know what is needed or best for a rookie QB like Zach, then JD certainly should have, and Greg Knapp was not nearly enough. For certain, I think he would have helped make the situation better, but I don't think that he would have made a huge difference. I'm willing to forgive JD because of the other good that he has done, and because he acknowledged that he had screwed up, but imo he needs to get the OL fixed in 2024. If not, then he has to go. He's had bad luck with the injuries and some of the FA OL not working out or not signing here, but trying and close isn't getting it done.
He has improved his drafting, but I'm not certain about his decision making as he planned to keep Duane Brown as the LT once Orlando Brown opted to sign with the Bengals. I hope that he will be able to get the OL fixed.
Douglas didn't hire Gase. Actually, Gase was instrumental in getting Douglas hired. For that, I'll be forever grateful to Gase. For once a stupid decision by the Jets' owner actually wound up helping the team.
There may have been some adjustments happening in the Dallas game, but not the crucial ones of playing press coverage and having Sauce and Reed play man coverage, and imo that's what was needed. I hope that Matty Ryan is right about Ulrich and that we will see more necessary adjustments.
In general, I agree with the idea of patience and I agree with that regarding Zach. The problem is that most Jets fans have little or no patience because of all the incompetence shown by the owners over the years, the horrible hires, the lousy drafts, and all the losing. I've been willing to give Saleh, the CS, JD and all patience, but there are limits. This season was hyped up as a SB season, and we were "supposed" to have an elite D, and it's been anything but elite through 5 games. As I also mentioned Zach's time is running out, if not with the GM and CS then it is with the media and fanbase. I have actually seen Jets fans talk about booing Zach at games. He doesn't deserve that, and I'd rather see him traded to another team where he'll be appreciated than continue to see Jets fans trashing him, saying he sucks, etc.
I've been preaching patience here and elsewhere regarding Zach and the team, but it basically is falling on deaf ears. Many Jets fans' minds are already made up that Zach will never be a starting caliber QB in the NFL.
It's one thing to try adjustments, but the need to work. If not, then bigger, more drastic adjustments need to be made, and I haven't seen those yet. I did see some adjustments in the Denver game and that gives me some hope for Ulbrich and the D.
I'm shocked that it has taken the Jets this long to "trust" Huff. IMO he was never bad vs the run. I watched a lot of video of him in college, and he was good against the run in college, and he seemed to make quite a few plays vs the run his rookie season, and then the Jets decided that he couldn't stop the run for some reason. They'd better find a way to keep him. He is a stud.
I'm disappointed in Lawson's play. He looks like Tarzan, but is playing more like Jane. The Jets may try to trade him, but I doubt that they'll get much if anything for him. I liked the move when the Jets signed him, and he looked awesome in TC that year until he tore his achilles. He just hasn't been the same player.
I had thought that McDonald would make more of an impact this year, but he's been pretty invisible. I guess that he needs to get stronger and a little bigger.
I was glad to see that Woods was active, and he got the safety yesterday. Q seemingly was invisible. Is that accurate? He hasn't had a very good start to the season. I hope his getting paid isn't causing him to coast. Thankfully, Jefferson is making some plays.
I can't believe that AVT got hurt again in Denver. Please don't be his Achilles!!!! How did Mitchell look when he replaced AVT? Did Becton get hurt too? I read somewhere that before the end of the 1st half both starting OTs were not on the field and that's why the Jets didn't try to score.
Mitchell looked like you would expect. He sometimes looked like a baby deer (hyper athletic for an o-lineman but sometimes falls down). He plays a bit different style from AVT, so if they were to need to rely on him, they'd probably opt for a slightly different menu of plays. He was getting to the second level really quickly and sticking. That was positive. The whole offensive line will need to fix some communication issues this week.
Quinnen; he was, actually, getting mugged nearly every play. He was often putting serious pressure on Wilson even though he wasn't necessarily shedding his man and getting home. He's, often, not particularly blockable in the sense that guards can't control where he goes. He gets where he wants but isn't always able to covert it into a sack, which isn't necessarily concerning, especially if they're trying to get certain guys free. They were running a bunch of stunts, so I bet they thought that they could get some dudes free and confuse the Bronco's offensive line.
You're right that they need to keep getting Huff snaps, and I think that is happening naturally. He's, seemingly, taken Carl Lawson's role and they're starting to give him more reps in place of JFM (sometimes, simply, moving JFM inside to replace Jefferson, Thomas, or Woods). I think you're starting to see certain combinations of linemen develop. I saw Thomas out there with Woods a bunch. Jefferson was out there with Quinnen a lot.