Sometime things are just painfully obvious, and you just have to do the right thing. You fire your Run & Passing game coordinators today, Saleh’s misguided loyalties cannot and will not crush this team. The lack of decisiveness from Douglas, Saleh and Hackett is a recipe for a complete housecleaning . I have never seen so many mid week injuries to an Offensive Line, in my lifetime, do I blame Carter, yes I do. Carter has issues, lack of player development, communication issues, penalties but what is most important is Breece Hall isn’t happy with the guy, that’s enough to get you fired. I will say the running game needs a little diversity, with more of a man to man blocking schemes, and less reliance on outside zone schemes, a challenge for the next guy.
Todd Downing is your passing game coordinator, you have the 32nd ranked Offense, there has to be some accountability, not enough easy throws, Getsy is a decent replacement, get it done. Replacing your Run & Passing game coordinators is the politically correct thing to do, it demonstrates that Douglas and Saleh are not asleep at the wheel, and actually care about results. I’m waiting. Tick, tick, tick...
Here is the deal. I have been a huge supporter of Douglas & Saleh, but if they sit on their hands and not fire these guys, I want Saleh and Douglas out. If they are just waiting for Rodgers to bail their ass out , they are delusional. I truly understand that you may want to line up your replacements before you fire, but they need to get it done
I was very happy with Saleh's signing also, but he's shown he is gutless and incapable of adding anything smart into the mix offense-wise. There were HUGE problems behind the scenes this past season and all he could do is mumble idiotic nonsense at pressers and look like a cuckold afraid of losing his wife.
This is an Offensive League, the majority of the Firings have been Coaches with Defensive backgrounds, Vrabel & Belichek great coaches but defensive guys. The Head Coaches that are succeeding are young innovative Offensive Coaches ( Hackett stuck in the 90’s certainly doesn’t help the situation). The Jets have an opportunity to fire and hire a new Running & Passing game coordinator, Hackett won’t demand performance, so Saleh has to, if he wants to survive. It’s about constant innovation, demand for execution and an Offensive mind set.
But that's the entire problem in a nutshell, Saleh is truly incapable of being a top-flight head coach, here or anywhere else. His true colors came out this season and showed him for what he is. WoodHead is not going to change anything, he's already punted on that. Saleh's a dead man walking, as is JD, no matter what blame he "accepts". With this staff in place, the Jets odds of succeeding in their "all-in" quest are below 50%. And we still don't know if St. Rodgers will be able to perform as advertised.
This is what happens when a benighted owner cannot see the rot in his coaching and GM staff. I would have fired the HC and the balance of the offensive staff. Would keep the GM for some stability. He’s been up and down. His first draft was a complete wash, but he did have that great draft 2 years ago and he did fleece Seattle.
There is a very short time window with Rogers. Based on his nepotism for prior colleagues and coaches, his advanced age and a weak coaching and management team, I am concerned that we will not reach the promised land.
So would you have paired a new head coach with the entire defensive staff that just watched the head coach who brought them in kicked out the door? Power dynamics are a very real concern in coaching and it's important to create a very clear flow of authority. That has been the big problem with trying to completely cut Saleh off at the knees by installing a brand new offensive coordinator that he didn't bring in who was, in turn, picked just so that the team could bring in a quarterback who that offensive coordinator is friends with.
Arranged marriages on coaching staffs rarely work. The industry is what it is, and what it isn't is a regular office where you hire a bunch of bright people based solely on aptitude or scheme fit. These coaches are brought in because they coached with someone already on the staff from somewhere else. It is almost like bringing in a new "prospect" to a motor cycle club (apologies fellas....watching "Mayans" on Hulu and I can only think in terms of MC politics). Someone vouches for the new guy and said new guy slowly blends into the power structure. Installing a new head coach and offensive staff without jettisoning the old defensive staff creates two separate power centers on the team, which in turn, creates problems of where authority lies.
I agree with almost all that you said here regarding coaching staffs, but imo that in a nutshell, is the problem with the NFL and coaching. They're grown ass men and getting paid a ton of money. If they can't work with someone on the CS with whom they've never worked before, then they shouldn't be a coach in the NFL and maybe not even in the college ranks.
I disagree with your last sentence. It may be accurate, but it shouldn't be. The power center and chain of command should be as follows GM - HC - OC & DC are equals. I understand that Ulbrich was the best coach on the CS last year and the year before, but he may be gone. Even if not, he still shouldn't have more power than the OC. The OC and DC should be peers. Both need to put aside pettyjealousy, egos, and bias toward their units and do what is best for the team overall. They should work together, support each other, and root for each other. I understand that can be difficult when one is doing one's job very well and the other is incompetent. If I had been Ulbrich this past season, I would have wanted to kick Hackett's ass, but I would have done my best to be a professional and do my job the best I could. I certainly wouldn't want to be back with Hackett continuing as OC, so with Hackett not getting hired, I probably would quit. If Hackett did, I'm sure that he'd have another job in a nanosecond.
The whole CS works for the GM, and if they don't do their job or play well with others, then said GM should fire their ass. End of story. That's the problem with JD. He tries to play too nice and build consensus. He needs to go, and the Jets need a kick ass GM who brings in a "my way or the highway" mindset who will accept nothing less than smart, disciplined play and winning.
The blocking scheme isn't the issue. The common misconception here is that a zone scheme means that they aren't doing any "man to man" blocking. The zone scheme just tells the offensive linemen who they'll be responsible to block and where the running back hits the hole. Every single block that is going on, most plays, is a combo block. Whether it is the left guard and center working together on the nose, towards the inside linebacker or another rough facsimile of that, it's all very similar. The main difference with the zone heavy (inside and outside) stuff is that you're doing less pulling linemen and accounting for more defenders using front-side blockers rather than bringing dudes from the backside. The scheme isn't the issue here.
Communication feels like a much larger problem. Too many times there were fuck-ups where two linemen waffle on an assignment and either wind up blocking the same guy or blocking neither of the dudes they're responsible for. Carter, whatever the problem may be, seems to have not done a good job preparing his unit. That could also have some fingers that stretch into other coaches and the way the coaches are communicating amongst one another. How are the running backs being coached to run a specific play? Are they running it the exact way that the offensive line are blocking the play? Are they trying to stretch something more than they ought to be? Are they too often looking for the home run cut back lane? Are they taking yards where they're available? How much attrition are they okay with as long as there are home runs every so many plays?
Those are the kinds of things that this offensive staff needs to figure out because the units never seemed to be communicating enough with one another, at least with how they were playing. There isn't some kind of magic bullet. It isn't as if just giving Breece more runs would've magically turned this combination of units into a better offense. Saying that they just called the wrong plays (not that you're saying that here....it's been said elsewhere, of course) displays more of a "fan understanding" of the game than a "coach understanding." It's why the "change the play caller" debates are always a little disingenuous because there is far more to an offensive game-plan than calling the right play. It's also notable that on any given down there are a number of right plays and they're usually dependent on the different units that make up the offense executing their job in the correct way all at the same time. That rarely happened with this team.
Let us, as a fan base, talk in more nuanced ways about the problems with this team and how they performed. There are teams in the race, right now, who have constantly signed on retread running backs like your Dalvin Cooks put together capable ground games. It is more than a player being bad (which Dalvin Cook is not....he's probably average now) or a coach calling a bad game (which Hackett no doubt did a few times this year) or a team having poor discipline (which the Jets offense showcased a few times this year). How do ALL of those ingredients interact? That's the point and its never easy to see it because there are so damn many variables.
Okay; rant over. I got this one to Bobber-length, I think.
Not cleaning house is going to end up killing the "all-in" nature of the 2024 season. It's as plain as the phony smiles on Saleh's face. He's the lamest of lame ducks, as is JD. It's like Cunard Line handing another prestigious ocean liner captaincy to Capt. Edward Smith after the Titanic went down, which is a very apt comparison. It will be interesting to see how bad they will screw up the 2024 season, lol.
The players still play for him. Dudes still want to player under him. He's always been a motivator, and that's what you're paying for with him. You aren't paying him to be involved in the offense, which is why you pay somebody to be the offensive coordinator. Unfortunately, they set up a convoluted power structure where Hackett doesn't seem to actually report to Saleh, or else we'd have seen more changes because that defense was clearly asking for changes that would've come from a defensive minded head coach who has a dominant D. We didn't see those things though. We saw the offense continue to work through growing pains and try to develop their identity. It never seemed like the offensive staff was ever cohesive enough to get anything done.
I disagree wholeheartedly with this post. Based on what I've read here, the players didn't play so well down the stretch for him. They were flat and unprepared for games. Where were his great motivation skills?
He's being paid to produce a winner, to oversee the WHOLE team, and that includes the offense. If a unit on the team is undisciplined, unprepared, and playing as horribly and ineptly as the offense did this season, it's his job to get in the OC's face and make sure that crap stops! If the OC fails to make the necessary changes, then it's his job to make the changes, to demote the OC or fire him, and have someone else in charge of the offense, or take it over himself.
Part of the problem is that in effect, Saleh, JD and Woody are all being told what to do by Rodgers because they are afraid to make any move that he may not like. Screw that! The tail can't wag the dog. Rodgers plays for the HC and GM, not vice versa. You might be right about the convoluted power structure, but I doubt it. I have my doubts that Saleh would have made any changes that would have made a big difference. Like most HCs who were DCs, they are defensive minded and conservative on offense. They are risk averse, and that was a big part of the offense's problems this season. Did they ever let Zach throw into the end zone? They were only aggressive in 1-2 games this season and one of those was early in the season when they got down 17 points to their opponent (the Chiefs?)
If you're right and JD or Woody forced Saleh to not say or do anything, then they're all bigger fools than I thought they were, and they deserve to have Rodgers go down in the 1st quarter again and go 0-17 next season.
I'm not certain that the problem was them not letting Zach Wilson throw into the end zone. Most of the problems seemed to be moving the ball and not making a bunch of dumb mistakes that set the offense back (whether they were made by the o-line by holding or jumping, running backs by hitting the wrong read or missing a block, receivers by holding or jumping or missing blocks or running the wrong routes, or Zach himself). I didn't get the impression that Hackett was all that comfortable calling an offense without the checks and audibles he'd built in for Rodgers. I suppose there is a question of whether he felt confident with Zach Wilson making those checks (which would've been a dumb reason to not do it). It never seemed like the big issue was the offense not taking shots. It never seemed like they linked together enough positive plays to take shots.
I, and a number of others here, think it was a problem. With the problems the Jets were having with discipline and shooting themselves in the foot, they were unlikely to be able to go on long sustained drives with any consistency and then score. More than likely, they'd wind up shooting themselves in the foot and then punting. Also, by not throwing into the end zone, it gave opposing Ds less to have to cover or worry about, and they could focus more on stopping the short routes and the run. I think it also hurt the offense's confidence. If Zach had hit on a long TD or two, it could have boosted the offense's confidence, and perhaps they would have played better after that. It also likely would have helped to fire up the D, and give momentum to the Jets.
Before I stopped watching and caring, there were several drives, and games where they had the opportunity. Zach was playing better, making good, quick decisions, was accurate, and Hackett or Saleh, or both, would never take the reins off. I truly believe that their lack of confidence in Zach is part of what caused him to struggle. I'm certain that with the pressure he was under most of the time and the way he was having to play was no fun for him, and put him in a position of having to be perfect and not make a mistake, and players cannot play their best, especially QBs, when they have to play that way. The whole way they handled Zach from day one was a clusterfuck.
One cannot win in the NFL playing conservative offense any more, it puts too much pressure on the D to have to be perfect and try to win the game, and no D outside of the '85 Bears is going to be able to handle that.
It will be interesting when ZW is moved to another team and if he has a chance to play, what his level of performance will be. Will the Jets be known as the place where top 5 QB are sent to die!
None of us on here (or in the media for that matter) had evidence that there was a coach or coaches or any kind of directive that Zach not take shots or that Zach not throw deep or that they offensive staff couldn't throw into the end zone. The fact is that offense isn't simply taking shots. There is more nuance to the game and you need to be able to set up the shots that you do take. The Jets tried and usually fucked it up. That is a huge problem, but it isn't that they were "calling the wrong plays" or that they wouldn't let Zach Wilson "cook." It's certainly possible that Robert Saleh went to Nate Hackett and told him to not let Zach Wilson take any shots into the end zone. Unfortunately, that possibility probably occurred in a movie script attempting to dramatize what happens in coaches meetings and game-planning.
There are possible ways that a conservative game plan could've actually impacted the offense. It's possible that the menu of plays that required longer protection times were chopped down because Saleh wasn't comfortable with taking the chance of a sack occurring because of shitty pass blocking during a long developing route concept. That feels possible. It's also possible that the intermediate throws that, perhaps, Hackett was comfortable with Zach making on certain downs and distances were vetoed from the game plan because Saleh didn't feel comfortable with Zach's ability to make those throws or of the offensive line's ability to block long enough to allow for Zach to go through those reads.
I'm not really seeing a ton of other ways that the whole "Saleh wouldn't let the offense allow Zach to throw end zone shots" argument makes much sense. Maybe I'm missing something, though. I do that a lot.
I don’t know if there was a specific directive that we would know about but in many games it appears the game plan was exceptionally conservative. Reminded me of the 1960s....3 yards and a cloud of dust.
Come on, Daniel. This isn't the first time you've thrown out that "evidence" comment, and it's lame! You're better than that. You've coached football, and you watched the games. Zach was a gunslinger by nature. He wouldn't have not taken shots downfield or into the end zone if he hadn't been told not to, or it hadn't been coached out of him. There were times in games where things were set up for Zach to take a shot into the endzone, and instead a run up the middle or some short pass was called.
I think you're wrong that Hackett wasn't calling the right plays. His play calling was a joke. It was so predictable. He wouldn't know how to set up anything. I'm shocked he ever got a job in coaching he is so inept and incompetent.
As for fear that Zach would get sacked, that was happening routinely anyway or the OL or WR was committing a penalty or Lazard was dropping a pass. They might as well have taken a shot. They weren't winning, and they were out of games because they were so conservative and inept. Zach might have been sacked or thrown an interception, but that wouldn't really have changed the game since they were losing most of the time anyway. How about the times where it was getting late in the 4th Qtr, the Jets were 2-3 scores behind, and the Jets were around midfield, and Saleh had them punt on 4th down. Why not let Zach let it rip? If nothing else, they might have gotten lucky. They were going to lose if they didn't score.
I know that you have seen a big play like a long TD pass or even a 20-yard TD pass turn things around for teams. Afterwards, the D was fired up and produced a 3 and out, then the offense came back on the field and played with increased confidence, and suddenly started playing like they should have, like in the game where Zach brought them back from a 17-point deficit early in the season.
I think you need to ask yourself why you have to ask for written evidence when your eyes and knowledge of the game has already given you plenty of evidence, and why you feel this unceasing need to defend the CS, especially Saleh and Hackett.
What areas of Robert Saleh's coaching do you find incompetent? This sounds like a shit-eating sort of question, but it is earnest. What things do you think that he does well? What things do you think he does poorly? Are those things that fall under the head coach's purview? Are they things that he had authority to correct? Are those things that could be explained in a way you haven't thought of yet?
Yesterday, a few offensive linemen who previously played for Carter on other teams, spoke out about him and it wasn’t really complimentary.
Adding to the negative comments were emojis from Breece Hall and Becton on social media that were also negative about him.
Evidently only in the New York Jets world can a team finish last or next to last in every statistical category and every offensive coach is brought back.
I’m sure some fans applaud Saleh’s loyalty to his coaches but unfortunately loyalty can only go so far in a result oriented buisness.
Adding to this mysterious everyone is coming back conundrum is that Douglas’s so called forte is offensive linemen and I presume offensive line coaches. He did play guard in college.
Can it be that Carter’s ex players are lying, you want to discount Becton’s disapproval, that’s understandable based on the way he played this year. I’m sure he heard about his very lackluster performances as he left the field from his position coach.
But Hall is different, both he and Garrett Wilson have become the Jets offensive team leaders. They back up what they say by the way they play. It’s performance that counts not rhetoric. I would assume the Jet coaching staff would receptive to what he says.
Speaking of rhetoric, Saleh this year has really turned up the BS meter.
Again we don’t know the machinations at work behind the closed doors in the Johnsons stronghold in Florham Park but Saleh has almost become laughingly untruthful when he talks.
He has not put himself on a slippery slope but rather a mountain after an ice storm.
In making a point, he overstates what he says. He doesn’t know where or when to end it.
His latest from this week.
“I thought our run game, like I said, our run game got better and better, Breece in the outside zone scheme really hit strides over the last few weeks. Again, it’s year one of a system with all the turnover and the content still being able to improve as the year went on, I thought he did a really nice job.”
Saleh should cut the bullshit out. It wasn’t Carter’s line coaching, it was brain dead Hackett, waking up and deciding to give Hall more than 7-10 carries a game and finding out that Hall could actually catch the football.
The last three games of the season
70 carries 367 yards
23 receptions 150 yds
Previous 7 games
75 Carrie’s 184 yds
34 receptions 282 yds
It wasn’t about Carters coaching techniques, it was all about opportunities for Hall.
The numbers don’t lie, they only show the total mediocrity of Saleh and his offensive coaching staff
But, yea Woody, bring them all back
How about Rackett stays as OC but Gutsy becomes the play caller. This way Rodgers is happy and us Pitchforks and Torches guys are satisfied that Rackett is snoozing during the game and an offensive intelligent person is calling the plays
Some of us might really appreciate your getting long winded. After all, you have that experience of playing QB. There's nothing wrong with writing a long post.
The offseason has just begun. Collectively we all understand the issues and what needs to be done to prevent the ship from sinking. Unfortunately our owner who is almost old enough to have sailed on the Titanic has given the GM and coaches a free pass with no requirement to pack the luggage. I understand that changing the GM and coach at this time typically results in a year or two adjustment to a new scheme, and our window with AR is limited. However......
Why couldn’t they elevate Ulbrecht to HC, and get rid of Hackett and tell our QB that the grown ups are going to run the asylum! AR can still run his plays as he is sufficiently talented, a QB savant, that the OC doesn’t matter. But for everyone else it does, particularly if he is injured. Creativity is essential for the offense and Hackett just doesn’t have it.
Well... the benighted one gave every one a free pass. No accountability. At least the Rangers and Knicks are putting an enjoyable product on the ice and the court.
Good analysis David ! While we all can bitch about coaches not being replaced, bad decisions by the coach and GM - nothing is going to change for 2024. Woody committed to these guys way too early. I would to see Mike Vrabel come in or a J Harbaugh. However that is not happening. I really beleive that what Saleh says he believes. The guy is a professional and not a liar. The one thing they never di was plan for the worse case senario - but what NFL team does ? So us fans give this staff a mulligan in our fandome and wait it out till 2025 when they possibly get fired. OR we go along for the ride and hope 2024 is a good year - with that said means they will all be back in 2025 LOL.I do think there will be staff changes - this is only the middle of the first post week of the season.
Agreed Steve. I personally would have replaced Saleh but I also quite like this last chance saloon environment that we're in. You're also right that this off-season is only just kicking into gear, Carroll out in Seattle, Big Bill out in New England, a lot of decisions left to be made. I think we may see a new QB coach in at some point and I'm hopeful it's Luke Getsy. I'm excited for 2024.
Sometime things are just painfully obvious, and you just have to do the right thing. You fire your Run & Passing game coordinators today, Saleh’s misguided loyalties cannot and will not crush this team. The lack of decisiveness from Douglas, Saleh and Hackett is a recipe for a complete housecleaning . I have never seen so many mid week injuries to an Offensive Line, in my lifetime, do I blame Carter, yes I do. Carter has issues, lack of player development, communication issues, penalties but what is most important is Breece Hall isn’t happy with the guy, that’s enough to get you fired. I will say the running game needs a little diversity, with more of a man to man blocking schemes, and less reliance on outside zone schemes, a challenge for the next guy.
Todd Downing is your passing game coordinator, you have the 32nd ranked Offense, there has to be some accountability, not enough easy throws, Getsy is a decent replacement, get it done. Replacing your Run & Passing game coordinators is the politically correct thing to do, it demonstrates that Douglas and Saleh are not asleep at the wheel, and actually care about results. I’m waiting. Tick, tick, tick...
hey JetOrange!!!!
"... I'm waiting. Tick, tick, tick... "
And you'd better be sitting down while waiting, too, Jet... 'cus if you do it standing up, you're gonna get AAAAWWWWWFFFUUULLL Tired.
Here is the deal. I have been a huge supporter of Douglas & Saleh, but if they sit on their hands and not fire these guys, I want Saleh and Douglas out. If they are just waiting for Rodgers to bail their ass out , they are delusional. I truly understand that you may want to line up your replacements before you fire, but they need to get it done
I was very happy with Saleh's signing also, but he's shown he is gutless and incapable of adding anything smart into the mix offense-wise. There were HUGE problems behind the scenes this past season and all he could do is mumble idiotic nonsense at pressers and look like a cuckold afraid of losing his wife.
This is an Offensive League, the majority of the Firings have been Coaches with Defensive backgrounds, Vrabel & Belichek great coaches but defensive guys. The Head Coaches that are succeeding are young innovative Offensive Coaches ( Hackett stuck in the 90’s certainly doesn’t help the situation). The Jets have an opportunity to fire and hire a new Running & Passing game coordinator, Hackett won’t demand performance, so Saleh has to, if he wants to survive. It’s about constant innovation, demand for execution and an Offensive mind set.
But that's the entire problem in a nutshell, Saleh is truly incapable of being a top-flight head coach, here or anywhere else. His true colors came out this season and showed him for what he is. WoodHead is not going to change anything, he's already punted on that. Saleh's a dead man walking, as is JD, no matter what blame he "accepts". With this staff in place, the Jets odds of succeeding in their "all-in" quest are below 50%. And we still don't know if St. Rodgers will be able to perform as advertised.
JO, my concern is they have no intention of dumping these guys?
A Valid concern, and a disservice to this team
This is what happens when a benighted owner cannot see the rot in his coaching and GM staff. I would have fired the HC and the balance of the offensive staff. Would keep the GM for some stability. He’s been up and down. His first draft was a complete wash, but he did have that great draft 2 years ago and he did fleece Seattle.
There is a very short time window with Rogers. Based on his nepotism for prior colleagues and coaches, his advanced age and a weak coaching and management team, I am concerned that we will not reach the promised land.
So would you have paired a new head coach with the entire defensive staff that just watched the head coach who brought them in kicked out the door? Power dynamics are a very real concern in coaching and it's important to create a very clear flow of authority. That has been the big problem with trying to completely cut Saleh off at the knees by installing a brand new offensive coordinator that he didn't bring in who was, in turn, picked just so that the team could bring in a quarterback who that offensive coordinator is friends with.
Arranged marriages on coaching staffs rarely work. The industry is what it is, and what it isn't is a regular office where you hire a bunch of bright people based solely on aptitude or scheme fit. These coaches are brought in because they coached with someone already on the staff from somewhere else. It is almost like bringing in a new "prospect" to a motor cycle club (apologies fellas....watching "Mayans" on Hulu and I can only think in terms of MC politics). Someone vouches for the new guy and said new guy slowly blends into the power structure. Installing a new head coach and offensive staff without jettisoning the old defensive staff creates two separate power centers on the team, which in turn, creates problems of where authority lies.
I agree with almost all that you said here regarding coaching staffs, but imo that in a nutshell, is the problem with the NFL and coaching. They're grown ass men and getting paid a ton of money. If they can't work with someone on the CS with whom they've never worked before, then they shouldn't be a coach in the NFL and maybe not even in the college ranks.
I disagree with your last sentence. It may be accurate, but it shouldn't be. The power center and chain of command should be as follows GM - HC - OC & DC are equals. I understand that Ulbrich was the best coach on the CS last year and the year before, but he may be gone. Even if not, he still shouldn't have more power than the OC. The OC and DC should be peers. Both need to put aside pettyjealousy, egos, and bias toward their units and do what is best for the team overall. They should work together, support each other, and root for each other. I understand that can be difficult when one is doing one's job very well and the other is incompetent. If I had been Ulbrich this past season, I would have wanted to kick Hackett's ass, but I would have done my best to be a professional and do my job the best I could. I certainly wouldn't want to be back with Hackett continuing as OC, so with Hackett not getting hired, I probably would quit. If Hackett did, I'm sure that he'd have another job in a nanosecond.
The whole CS works for the GM, and if they don't do their job or play well with others, then said GM should fire their ass. End of story. That's the problem with JD. He tries to play too nice and build consensus. He needs to go, and the Jets need a kick ass GM who brings in a "my way or the highway" mindset who will accept nothing less than smart, disciplined play and winning.
Valid points
The blocking scheme isn't the issue. The common misconception here is that a zone scheme means that they aren't doing any "man to man" blocking. The zone scheme just tells the offensive linemen who they'll be responsible to block and where the running back hits the hole. Every single block that is going on, most plays, is a combo block. Whether it is the left guard and center working together on the nose, towards the inside linebacker or another rough facsimile of that, it's all very similar. The main difference with the zone heavy (inside and outside) stuff is that you're doing less pulling linemen and accounting for more defenders using front-side blockers rather than bringing dudes from the backside. The scheme isn't the issue here.
Communication feels like a much larger problem. Too many times there were fuck-ups where two linemen waffle on an assignment and either wind up blocking the same guy or blocking neither of the dudes they're responsible for. Carter, whatever the problem may be, seems to have not done a good job preparing his unit. That could also have some fingers that stretch into other coaches and the way the coaches are communicating amongst one another. How are the running backs being coached to run a specific play? Are they running it the exact way that the offensive line are blocking the play? Are they trying to stretch something more than they ought to be? Are they too often looking for the home run cut back lane? Are they taking yards where they're available? How much attrition are they okay with as long as there are home runs every so many plays?
Those are the kinds of things that this offensive staff needs to figure out because the units never seemed to be communicating enough with one another, at least with how they were playing. There isn't some kind of magic bullet. It isn't as if just giving Breece more runs would've magically turned this combination of units into a better offense. Saying that they just called the wrong plays (not that you're saying that here....it's been said elsewhere, of course) displays more of a "fan understanding" of the game than a "coach understanding." It's why the "change the play caller" debates are always a little disingenuous because there is far more to an offensive game-plan than calling the right play. It's also notable that on any given down there are a number of right plays and they're usually dependent on the different units that make up the offense executing their job in the correct way all at the same time. That rarely happened with this team.
Let us, as a fan base, talk in more nuanced ways about the problems with this team and how they performed. There are teams in the race, right now, who have constantly signed on retread running backs like your Dalvin Cooks put together capable ground games. It is more than a player being bad (which Dalvin Cook is not....he's probably average now) or a coach calling a bad game (which Hackett no doubt did a few times this year) or a team having poor discipline (which the Jets offense showcased a few times this year). How do ALL of those ingredients interact? That's the point and its never easy to see it because there are so damn many variables.
Okay; rant over. I got this one to Bobber-length, I think.
So, we paid Cook roughly $24,000.00 a yard. Great signing.
Not cleaning house is going to end up killing the "all-in" nature of the 2024 season. It's as plain as the phony smiles on Saleh's face. He's the lamest of lame ducks, as is JD. It's like Cunard Line handing another prestigious ocean liner captaincy to Capt. Edward Smith after the Titanic went down, which is a very apt comparison. It will be interesting to see how bad they will screw up the 2024 season, lol.
The players still play for him. Dudes still want to player under him. He's always been a motivator, and that's what you're paying for with him. You aren't paying him to be involved in the offense, which is why you pay somebody to be the offensive coordinator. Unfortunately, they set up a convoluted power structure where Hackett doesn't seem to actually report to Saleh, or else we'd have seen more changes because that defense was clearly asking for changes that would've come from a defensive minded head coach who has a dominant D. We didn't see those things though. We saw the offense continue to work through growing pains and try to develop their identity. It never seemed like the offensive staff was ever cohesive enough to get anything done.
I disagree wholeheartedly with this post. Based on what I've read here, the players didn't play so well down the stretch for him. They were flat and unprepared for games. Where were his great motivation skills?
He's being paid to produce a winner, to oversee the WHOLE team, and that includes the offense. If a unit on the team is undisciplined, unprepared, and playing as horribly and ineptly as the offense did this season, it's his job to get in the OC's face and make sure that crap stops! If the OC fails to make the necessary changes, then it's his job to make the changes, to demote the OC or fire him, and have someone else in charge of the offense, or take it over himself.
Part of the problem is that in effect, Saleh, JD and Woody are all being told what to do by Rodgers because they are afraid to make any move that he may not like. Screw that! The tail can't wag the dog. Rodgers plays for the HC and GM, not vice versa. You might be right about the convoluted power structure, but I doubt it. I have my doubts that Saleh would have made any changes that would have made a big difference. Like most HCs who were DCs, they are defensive minded and conservative on offense. They are risk averse, and that was a big part of the offense's problems this season. Did they ever let Zach throw into the end zone? They were only aggressive in 1-2 games this season and one of those was early in the season when they got down 17 points to their opponent (the Chiefs?)
If you're right and JD or Woody forced Saleh to not say or do anything, then they're all bigger fools than I thought they were, and they deserve to have Rodgers go down in the 1st quarter again and go 0-17 next season.
I'm not certain that the problem was them not letting Zach Wilson throw into the end zone. Most of the problems seemed to be moving the ball and not making a bunch of dumb mistakes that set the offense back (whether they were made by the o-line by holding or jumping, running backs by hitting the wrong read or missing a block, receivers by holding or jumping or missing blocks or running the wrong routes, or Zach himself). I didn't get the impression that Hackett was all that comfortable calling an offense without the checks and audibles he'd built in for Rodgers. I suppose there is a question of whether he felt confident with Zach Wilson making those checks (which would've been a dumb reason to not do it). It never seemed like the big issue was the offense not taking shots. It never seemed like they linked together enough positive plays to take shots.
I, and a number of others here, think it was a problem. With the problems the Jets were having with discipline and shooting themselves in the foot, they were unlikely to be able to go on long sustained drives with any consistency and then score. More than likely, they'd wind up shooting themselves in the foot and then punting. Also, by not throwing into the end zone, it gave opposing Ds less to have to cover or worry about, and they could focus more on stopping the short routes and the run. I think it also hurt the offense's confidence. If Zach had hit on a long TD or two, it could have boosted the offense's confidence, and perhaps they would have played better after that. It also likely would have helped to fire up the D, and give momentum to the Jets.
Before I stopped watching and caring, there were several drives, and games where they had the opportunity. Zach was playing better, making good, quick decisions, was accurate, and Hackett or Saleh, or both, would never take the reins off. I truly believe that their lack of confidence in Zach is part of what caused him to struggle. I'm certain that with the pressure he was under most of the time and the way he was having to play was no fun for him, and put him in a position of having to be perfect and not make a mistake, and players cannot play their best, especially QBs, when they have to play that way. The whole way they handled Zach from day one was a clusterfuck.
One cannot win in the NFL playing conservative offense any more, it puts too much pressure on the D to have to be perfect and try to win the game, and no D outside of the '85 Bears is going to be able to handle that.
It will be interesting when ZW is moved to another team and if he has a chance to play, what his level of performance will be. Will the Jets be known as the place where top 5 QB are sent to die!
None of us on here (or in the media for that matter) had evidence that there was a coach or coaches or any kind of directive that Zach not take shots or that Zach not throw deep or that they offensive staff couldn't throw into the end zone. The fact is that offense isn't simply taking shots. There is more nuance to the game and you need to be able to set up the shots that you do take. The Jets tried and usually fucked it up. That is a huge problem, but it isn't that they were "calling the wrong plays" or that they wouldn't let Zach Wilson "cook." It's certainly possible that Robert Saleh went to Nate Hackett and told him to not let Zach Wilson take any shots into the end zone. Unfortunately, that possibility probably occurred in a movie script attempting to dramatize what happens in coaches meetings and game-planning.
There are possible ways that a conservative game plan could've actually impacted the offense. It's possible that the menu of plays that required longer protection times were chopped down because Saleh wasn't comfortable with taking the chance of a sack occurring because of shitty pass blocking during a long developing route concept. That feels possible. It's also possible that the intermediate throws that, perhaps, Hackett was comfortable with Zach making on certain downs and distances were vetoed from the game plan because Saleh didn't feel comfortable with Zach's ability to make those throws or of the offensive line's ability to block long enough to allow for Zach to go through those reads.
I'm not really seeing a ton of other ways that the whole "Saleh wouldn't let the offense allow Zach to throw end zone shots" argument makes much sense. Maybe I'm missing something, though. I do that a lot.
I don’t know if there was a specific directive that we would know about but in many games it appears the game plan was exceptionally conservative. Reminded me of the 1960s....3 yards and a cloud of dust.
Come on, Daniel. This isn't the first time you've thrown out that "evidence" comment, and it's lame! You're better than that. You've coached football, and you watched the games. Zach was a gunslinger by nature. He wouldn't have not taken shots downfield or into the end zone if he hadn't been told not to, or it hadn't been coached out of him. There were times in games where things were set up for Zach to take a shot into the endzone, and instead a run up the middle or some short pass was called.
I think you're wrong that Hackett wasn't calling the right plays. His play calling was a joke. It was so predictable. He wouldn't know how to set up anything. I'm shocked he ever got a job in coaching he is so inept and incompetent.
As for fear that Zach would get sacked, that was happening routinely anyway or the OL or WR was committing a penalty or Lazard was dropping a pass. They might as well have taken a shot. They weren't winning, and they were out of games because they were so conservative and inept. Zach might have been sacked or thrown an interception, but that wouldn't really have changed the game since they were losing most of the time anyway. How about the times where it was getting late in the 4th Qtr, the Jets were 2-3 scores behind, and the Jets were around midfield, and Saleh had them punt on 4th down. Why not let Zach let it rip? If nothing else, they might have gotten lucky. They were going to lose if they didn't score.
I know that you have seen a big play like a long TD pass or even a 20-yard TD pass turn things around for teams. Afterwards, the D was fired up and produced a 3 and out, then the offense came back on the field and played with increased confidence, and suddenly started playing like they should have, like in the game where Zach brought them back from a 17-point deficit early in the season.
I think you need to ask yourself why you have to ask for written evidence when your eyes and knowledge of the game has already given you plenty of evidence, and why you feel this unceasing need to defend the CS, especially Saleh and Hackett.
Motivation works great when associated with competency!
What areas of Robert Saleh's coaching do you find incompetent? This sounds like a shit-eating sort of question, but it is earnest. What things do you think that he does well? What things do you think he does poorly? Are those things that fall under the head coach's purview? Are they things that he had authority to correct? Are those things that could be explained in a way you haven't thought of yet?
Yesterday, a few offensive linemen who previously played for Carter on other teams, spoke out about him and it wasn’t really complimentary.
Adding to the negative comments were emojis from Breece Hall and Becton on social media that were also negative about him.
Evidently only in the New York Jets world can a team finish last or next to last in every statistical category and every offensive coach is brought back.
I’m sure some fans applaud Saleh’s loyalty to his coaches but unfortunately loyalty can only go so far in a result oriented buisness.
Adding to this mysterious everyone is coming back conundrum is that Douglas’s so called forte is offensive linemen and I presume offensive line coaches. He did play guard in college.
Can it be that Carter’s ex players are lying, you want to discount Becton’s disapproval, that’s understandable based on the way he played this year. I’m sure he heard about his very lackluster performances as he left the field from his position coach.
But Hall is different, both he and Garrett Wilson have become the Jets offensive team leaders. They back up what they say by the way they play. It’s performance that counts not rhetoric. I would assume the Jet coaching staff would receptive to what he says.
Speaking of rhetoric, Saleh this year has really turned up the BS meter.
Again we don’t know the machinations at work behind the closed doors in the Johnsons stronghold in Florham Park but Saleh has almost become laughingly untruthful when he talks.
He has not put himself on a slippery slope but rather a mountain after an ice storm.
In making a point, he overstates what he says. He doesn’t know where or when to end it.
His latest from this week.
“I thought our run game, like I said, our run game got better and better, Breece in the outside zone scheme really hit strides over the last few weeks. Again, it’s year one of a system with all the turnover and the content still being able to improve as the year went on, I thought he did a really nice job.”
Saleh should cut the bullshit out. It wasn’t Carter’s line coaching, it was brain dead Hackett, waking up and deciding to give Hall more than 7-10 carries a game and finding out that Hall could actually catch the football.
The last three games of the season
70 carries 367 yards
23 receptions 150 yds
Previous 7 games
75 Carrie’s 184 yds
34 receptions 282 yds
It wasn’t about Carters coaching techniques, it was all about opportunities for Hall.
The numbers don’t lie, they only show the total mediocrity of Saleh and his offensive coaching staff
But, yea Woody, bring them all back
How about Rackett stays as OC but Gutsy becomes the play caller. This way Rodgers is happy and us Pitchforks and Torches guys are satisfied that Rackett is snoozing during the game and an offensive intelligent person is calling the plays
This is a completely earnest question. What do you think that offensive coaching staffs and coaching staffs, in general, do?
I could answer these questions but when I start talking coaching I get more long winded than Bobber😂🤣
Some of us might really appreciate your getting long winded. After all, you have that experience of playing QB. There's nothing wrong with writing a long post.
Agree
I got my Bobber-post in for the day. 🤣
this is comical now lol
The offseason has just begun. Collectively we all understand the issues and what needs to be done to prevent the ship from sinking. Unfortunately our owner who is almost old enough to have sailed on the Titanic has given the GM and coaches a free pass with no requirement to pack the luggage. I understand that changing the GM and coach at this time typically results in a year or two adjustment to a new scheme, and our window with AR is limited. However......
Why couldn’t they elevate Ulbrecht to HC, and get rid of Hackett and tell our QB that the grown ups are going to run the asylum! AR can still run his plays as he is sufficiently talented, a QB savant, that the OC doesn’t matter. But for everyone else it does, particularly if he is injured. Creativity is essential for the offense and Hackett just doesn’t have it.
Well... the benighted one gave every one a free pass. No accountability. At least the Rangers and Knicks are putting an enjoyable product on the ice and the court.
😂
Good analysis David ! While we all can bitch about coaches not being replaced, bad decisions by the coach and GM - nothing is going to change for 2024. Woody committed to these guys way too early. I would to see Mike Vrabel come in or a J Harbaugh. However that is not happening. I really beleive that what Saleh says he believes. The guy is a professional and not a liar. The one thing they never di was plan for the worse case senario - but what NFL team does ? So us fans give this staff a mulligan in our fandome and wait it out till 2025 when they possibly get fired. OR we go along for the ride and hope 2024 is a good year - with that said means they will all be back in 2025 LOL.I do think there will be staff changes - this is only the middle of the first post week of the season.
Agreed Steve. I personally would have replaced Saleh but I also quite like this last chance saloon environment that we're in. You're also right that this off-season is only just kicking into gear, Carroll out in Seattle, Big Bill out in New England, a lot of decisions left to be made. I think we may see a new QB coach in at some point and I'm hopeful it's Luke Getsy. I'm excited for 2024.
Please let there be staff changes and get rid of the very offensive line coach!!!
hahaha